[walkinguf61]

And the SCOTUS has already ruled that the police have no responsibility to individuals.

That’s not completely true. People in custody and other special relationships, police do.
But the lawsuits against Peterson were tossed out.
The school however is going to be buried in the lawsuit. The locksmith may be sued as well.
And you know they are going try to sue the gun dealer and manufacturer.

 

[GPalmer]

What is ****ing inexcusable is she knew he was coming to help and he was stopped by his peers and they didn't help him rescue her and the other kids, none of them are fit to wear a badge,,,NONE

Bro, you don't want to see my reaction to this. All circuits are dead, pray for a CNS hit on me. I would have one purpose and it would not care about repercussions.

 

[walkinguf61]

Yeah but the BP SWAT Team took action. I guess you side with the Mayor and what the DPS Director said in the Senate hearing is false or the mayor said, lies?

They took action AFTER they got a key. The DPS director did mislead the senate when asked why they didn’t take over. The ALERRT training says that if someone “goes in” to directly engage the gunman, even if they are senior leadership, they are no longer incident commander or tac coordinator. That position goes to a supervisor outside the hot zone. DPS or Uvalde was in charge but didn’t step up.
And the state senator mentioned how in the military if they are out of contact with their leader, someone steps up. The school chief was out of contact in a school that the radios didn’t work in.

 

[JohnnyReb]

And the state senator mentioned how in the military if they are out of contact with their leader, someone steps up. The school chief was out of contact in a school that the radios didn’t work in.

Law enforcement does a poor job of this. Supervisors should be teaching their jobs to those below them. Ive seen it happen, but it’s extremely rare.

 

[walkinguf61]

Law enforcement does a poor job of this. Supervisors should be teaching their jobs to those below them. Ive seen it happen, but it’s extremely rare.

Yep. A steady bosses’s driver often picks up much of what the boss does and is tasked to do some it when things get busy. But that takes time and only really works in a busy command .

 

[Mayhem like Me]

Law enforcement does a poor job of this. Supervisors should be teaching their jobs to those below them. Ive seen it happen, but it’s extremely rare.

some LE, don't lump is in with that cluster.

 

[Sharkey]

They took action AFTER they got a key. The DPS director did mislead the senate when asked why they didn’t take over. The ALERRT training says that if someone “goes in” to directly engage the gunman, even if they are senior leadership, they are no longer incident commander or tac coordinator. That position goes to a supervisor outside the hot zone. DPS or Uvalde was in charge but didn’t step up.
And the state senator mentioned how in the military if they are out of contact with their leader, someone steps up. The school chief was out of contact in a school that the radios didn’t work in.

Yeah, but BP SWAT TOOK action. NO ONE went in to engage the shooter prior to BP so you being stuck on WHO was IC is moot. There was no reason to set up anything outside the hot zone because well it was a hot zone with kids being murdered. You think in that confusion, a DPS Sgt. Trooper is going to take over command of a clear chit sammich? Is that how they do it in NYC? The radios, not checking the door, the open door into the school are all issues but has 0 to do with Officers coming onscene and not engaging the shooter for 45min. How you don't think that is a problem is beyond me.

 

[walkinguf61]

Yeah, but BP SWAT TOOK action. NO ONE went in to engage the shooter prior to BP so you being stuck on WHO was IC is moot. There was no reason to set up anything outside the hot zone because well it was a hot zone with kids being murdered. You think in that confusion, a DPS Sgt. Trooper is going to take over command of a clear chit sammich? Is that how they do it in NYC? The radios, not checking the door, the open door into the school are all issues but has 0 to do with Officers coming onscene and not engaging the shooter for 45min. How you don't think that is a problem is beyond me.

Okay. You sent up staging area for medical right. Even escort for EMS. Sents up evac routes? The units that will evac the wounded ? Who sets that up or at least gives that assignment. The IC. Who coordinates the follow up units like SWAT, hostage negotiations etc. The IC is the answer. Where do you think the SWAT was placed when they arrived. Who makes the ultimate decision to send in SWAT? The IC.
If the Uvalde or DPS followed the training , they could or would have sent in SWAT right away or even ordered the tac teams to rush the door. Or a second tax team to go through the windows.
Who would make the decision to send another tac team through the windows or something ( the tac coordinator or IC).
The tax coordinator or IC tells the teams their mission or orders. You can’t coordinate that if you are actively involved with the suspect yourself . You just can’t . You can tell what you want but someone else has to actually coordinate it.
The everybody just rushes in doesn’t work well and adds to confusion. All those people with plainclothes often add to the confusion including making people believe that there is a second shooter. Or cause people to engage with friendly forces.
Imagine if the shooter jumped out the window as the first units where in the hallway. Someone has to coordinate that someone is covering that avenue of escape. And to make surehe doesn’t go out the windows and return to other classrooms.
The everyone just running in delays these actions.
Take the ASIM course by ALERRT. I took the course with people who dealt with this situation in real life as well as my own experience with armed criminals in sensitive locations/situations. They will prove that the staging area after the initial teams go in is faster. It’s like a fire drill. The orderly response is overall faster and they prove it in the training . Simmuntions in basic. Computer sims in ASIM.

 

[walkinguf61]

And let me add, the staging area especially works when radio communications are difficult at best. As the units come in, I could tap them on the shoulder and tell them— cover the back. You enter through the south side with that EMS crew( pointing at them) to the hallway. You evacuate the second floor out the south side entrance to the funeral home. Hold everyone there, in case they witnessed something and we might need that info.
We had a situation where we thought there was only one robber. The witness we detained not only told us about the second but was able to point him out where the other victims couldn’t .
People just running in, lose these witnesses who might be needed at a moment’s notice.
Note this is after the first teams go in.

 

[warbow150]

Disregard

 

[GigG]

That’s not completely true. People in custody and other special relationships, police do.

This is not such a case.

 

[warbow150]

some LE, don't lump is in with that cluster.

Exactly.

The Chief on scene was not actively engaging the suspect so the fog of war excuse isn’t cutting any ice. He was milling around, with more than enough resources available to do something worthwhile. He was in a better position than anyone to understand the tactical realities of the situation and had all the authority he could have ever needed to order an assault on the shooter. I don’t really care what his job title was according to which system (Yes, I’ve been to the training as well) He was a command level officer on scene in his jurisdiction during a crisis with all the info he needed to act. It seems he didn’t.

This is precisely when clear leadership was needed. There are departments around the country that actively encourage initiative in the absence of orders or in the presence of opportunity. Painting them all with the same brush just because of what happened in Uvalde isn’t doing justice to those organizations that hold to different standards.

 

[JohnnyReb]

This is precisely when clear leadership was needed. There are departments around the country that actively encourage initiative in the absence of orders or in the presence of opportunity. Painting them all with the same brush just because of what happened in Uvalde isn’t doing justice to those organizations that hold to different standards.

In the absence of that direction, someone should of stepped up and be a leader. I think most everyone with some experience has been in a situation where they realize nothing is happening. They know something should be said, some plan should be executed, but they sat in silence. Many, if not most organizations its, “follow the chain of command”. Do what you are ordered to do. Don’t think outside the box. Fit the mold, and don’t be “that guy”.

The lack some someone stepping up and waiting for the orders that never came shows a lack of leadership development throughout the department which should begin from day one.

MY agency does a poor job with this level of leadership development, and I had lunch with a command staff member the other day to discuss this very topic. My previous agency was even more ridged with command structure and following orders, with significantly more micromanagement.

There very well may be agencies that empower their employees, encourage leadership and influence throughout their organizations. Those that encourage in the absence of leadership, or the failure of leadership to step up to the plate and be a leader. But I don’t believe that to be the norm.

 

[walkinguf61]

Yeah, but BP SWAT TOOK action. NO ONE went in to engage the shooter prior to BP so you being stuck on WHO was IC is moot. There was no reason to set up anything outside the hot zone because well it was a hot zone with kids being murdered. You think in that confusion, a DPS Sgt. Trooper is going to take over command of a clear chit sammich? Is that how they do it in NYC? The radios, not checking the door, the open door into the school are all issues but has 0 to do with Officers coming onscene and not engaging the shooter for 45min. How you don't think that is a problem is beyond me.

The answer is a Hell YES. Here the second supervisor stays outside the hot zone to be the tac coordinator. He or she runs the show. Not the first supervisor who goes into the hot zone, regardless of rank( politics aside).
So a hell yes, to that question. And if you don’t think NYPD isn’t going to take over the incident from some local department inside NYPD jurisdiction like the Sea Gate police or Co-op city police, you are crazy. Yes, that Lowly NYPD sergeant is going to takeover that scene from that sea gate police chief. If it happens inside a state courthouse, the jurisdiction of court officers, hell yes, that lowly sergeant is taking over.
Taking over a s-show with a school to keep kids from dying. Hell, yes.
That SWAT team was outside waiting outside even before the search for the key should say something. The IC or tac commander outside the hot zone would have known they were available a lot earlier.

And if they believed that door was locked and they lacked proper breeching tools or training , the shooting had stopped and someone ( the school chief) declared it a hostage situation, you might wait for SWAT. A SWAT team was there and waited for the word to go in, then waited for a key. That’s when that border patrol team said, we have to go in and did. If the tac coordinator was outside where he or she knew they had SWAT available, they would have been sent in earlier. The school chief didn’t have radio communication, remember.

 

[walkinguf61]

In the absence of that direction, someone should of stepped up and be a leader. I think most everyone with some experience has been in a situation where they realize nothing is happening. They know something should be said, some plan should be executed, but they sat in silence. Many, if not most organizations its, “follow the chain of command”. Do what you are ordered to do. Don’t think outside the box. Fit the mold, and don’t be “that guy”.

The lack some someone stepping up and waiting for the orders that never came shows a lack of leadership development throughout the department which should begin from day one.

MY agency does a poor job with this level of leadership development, and I had lunch with a command staff member the other day to discuss this very topic. My previous agency was even more ridged with command structure and following orders, with significantly more micromanagement.

There very well may be agencies that empower their employees, encourage leadership and influence throughout their organizations. Those that encourage in the absence of leadership, or the failure of leadership to step up to the plate and be a leader. But I don’t believe that to be the norm.

Having worked in joint task forces with other agencies and even different precincts and boroughs in my own department, it varies. A busy command is used to not having a” boss” available to make a decision on certain things or the boss delegates it to a cop they trust. It becomes more of a notification rather than a request for a decision. Technically, the micromanaging in my department is crazy. A supervisor has to “verify “ every arrest. Cops and detectives we trust, it’s just a notification, but the supervisor is supposed to respond to the scene, etc etc.
I used to say I got promoted to keep the same level of responsibility used to have and make the same decisions I used to make-lol
I would complain that if cops were not allowed to make decisions as cops they won’t be able to do it when they are supervisors. Some decisions that were sergeant level decisions when I was a cop, went to the captain level and now are at the chief level in some cases.

 

[walkinguf61]

This is not such a case.

That’s why I mentioned they tossed the lawsuits against Peterson.

 

[Sharkey]

The answer is a Hell YES. Here the second supervisor stays outside the hot zone to be the tac coordinator. He or she runs the show. Not the first supervisor who goes into the hot zone, regardless of rank( politics aside).
So a hell yes, to that question. And if you don’t think NYPD isn’t going to take over the incident from some local department inside NYPD jurisdiction like the Sea Gate police or Co-op city police, you are crazy. Yes, that Lowly NYPD sergeant is going to takeover that scene from that sea gate police chief. If it happens inside a state courthouse, the jurisdiction of court officers, hell yes, that lowly sergeant is taking over.
Taking over a s-show with a school to keep kids from dying. Hell, yes.
That SWAT team was outside waiting outside even before the search for the key should say something. The IC or tac commander outside the hot zone would have known they were available a lot earlier.

And if they believed that door was locked and they lacked proper breeching tools or training , the shooting had stopped and someone ( the school chief) declared it a hostage situation, you might wait for SWAT. A SWAT team was there and waited for the word to go in, then waited for a key. That’s when that border patrol team said, we have to go in and did. If the tac coordinator was outside where he or she knew they had SWAT available, they would have been sent in earlier. The school chief didn’t have radio communication, remember.

Well I can tell you an outside agency here in TX is not gonna come in and take over (especially something like this) unless specifically asked. We obviously disagree but I say you are still missing the point. Forget IC and setting up outside the hot zone as you call it and telling the tac commander in the inner perimeter anything.
IF an active shooter is actively you know shooting people, you go in sans SWAT Team. I mean most agencies have had the discussion of solo officer and a team response of 2-4 officers (as many as you can immediately get). They had at least 3 officers initially, and it never sounds like they planned on going in because now we find they didn't even check the door. I don't think you can say they didn't hear the gunshots so what is your explanation for them not doing that? THIS has been my whole point from the very start a f this discussion. They had enough time to disarm a fellow officer trying to get to his wife. I mean WTF? How on earth do you have school police that haven't even discussed how to respond to this. Whoever decided to treat it like a barricaded person (Arredondo or someone else) really set the train wreck in motion.

Now once other agencies come onscene, I can see where they respond to what officers already onscene say.

 

[walkinguf61]

Well I can tell you an outside agency here in TX is not gonna come in and take over (especially something like this) unless specifically asked. We obviously disagree but I say you are still missing the point. Forget IC and setting up outside the hot zone as you call it and telling the tac commander in the inner perimeter anything.
IF an active shooter is actively you know shooting people, you go in sans SWAT Team. I mean most agencies have had the discussion of solo officer and a team response of 2-4 officers (as many as you can immediately get). They had at least 3 officers initially, and it never sounds like they planned on going in because now we find they didn't even check the door. I don't think you can say they didn't hear the gunshots so what is your explanation for them not doing that? THIS has been my whole point from the very start a f this discussion. They had enough time to disarm a fellow officer trying to get to his wife. I mean WTF? How on earth do you have school police that haven't even discussed how to respond to this. Whoever decided to treat it like a barricaded person (Arredondo or someone else) really set the train wreck in motion.

Now once other agencies come onscene, I can see where they respond to what officers already onscene say.

There is no excuse for the first four guys if the door wasn’t locked. Did they honestly believe the door was locked? They did convince the others the door was locked.

But the IC or tac commander is supposed to be outside even for a small department. And if Uvalde or DPS didn’t have the balls to takeover thsts on them especially if it goes against the active shooter management training and that it’s another outside department being tasked with the mission .
Why is the tac commander outside the hot zone? The school chief kind of said himself. He was too busy holding a rifle to use his radio if he had one. They also didn’t have radio communication inside. He didn’t know about the 911 calls inside in s timely fashion. He probably didn’t know the SWAT team was there for awhile . That’s why the IC isn’t inside. The IC is an overall commander , that’s why they have a Tac coordinator, known under a different name in training due to that leadership issue mentioned as to whom that person will be initially.
The IC is also responsible to make sure medical units are ready. The investigation unit is ready , not just to investigate the aftermath but info on what they are up against like interview the witnesses ( does the person have IEDs, an accomplice etc) . He can’t do that where the school chief was. How is he going to delegate those jobs and follow up if he so busy he can’t even hold a radio.
And you speak as if I haven’t had to make that decision to take the door. I have.

I alreadyPM they info on this to you about how and who is the tac coordinator and how he takes over if the chief of police himself is one of the first units to go in.

 

[GPalmer]

That’s why I mentioned they tossed the lawsuits against Peterson.

Dude, I have watched this thread and related threads. I have watched your endless cheerleading for AvonFatAssDonDo. You've once again impressed me as an admin Pogue, inflicted upon real men in spite of your vast and overwhelming incompetence. How DARE you quote ALERRT to defend a gutless coward who played with himself in a hallway instead of stepping up to be the IC. You keep stepping up to defend him from the criticism he richly deserves. This situation called for brutal action by violent men. Not endless simpering and inaction.

 

[walkinguf61]

Dude, I have watched this thread and related threads. I have watched your endless cheerleading for AvonFatAssDonDo. You've once again impressed me as an admin Pogue, inflicted upon real men in spite of your vast and overwhelming incompetence. How DARE you quote ALERRT to defend a gutless coward who played with himself in a hallway instead of stepping up to be the IC. You keep stepping up to defend him from the criticism he richly deserves. This situation called for brutal action by violent men. Not endless simpering and inaction.

I am not defending him based on ALERRT training. He screwed up but it should have not mattered as much as it did. Someone else was supposed to take over!!! He should have not been in charge. He was over his head. That’s why ALERRT doesn’t have the tac team leaders doing tac coordinating or the IC. This wasn’t just one guy’s screwup, It was multiple screw ups! And scapegoating the school chief is just covering up the real problem. Heck, from what is in the press, the school chief was not trained in active shooter management. Just basic active shooter. 8 hours isn’t enough to learn how to manage or practice management skills at such a level.

And as to my incompetence ? Calling me an admin guy? I put more handcuffs on people as a supervisor than most cops do in their entire career. That’s as a supervisor not just when zi was a cop. Want to motivate your slug officers to be active and make their own arrests. Threaten to find one for them and do it. Not reassign someone else’s hard work but go out yourself and hand them one . I was very hands on as a supervisor. And if any of us were to get hurt, it was more likely to me . I have taken doors both as a cop and supervisor. Have you?