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Yes picking a lock is an option— can you pick a lock? I can’t with most locks. SWAT often have members who can. Heck, some of our ESU guys are elevator repair trained ( hostage in an elevator like in the movie Speed).
Everything you are mentioning are solutions for why SWAT was created.
Ok….what about a Knox box. Guarantee you the school has one, it’s a modern school
 

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Even BorTac waited for the key before attempting an entry.
I read an article which I have no way of finding now that said BorTac attempted a breach and failed which prompted the search for the key. So even a tactical team who I assume had some sort of breaching equipment struck out.

As we know, outward opening fire rated doors on a metal frame are the toughest thing out there to get in.
 

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My wife is a teacher. I am a supervisor over patrol and SROs. My wife has discussed safety measures that would help her class but i can see the double edged sword. Her door is heavy and opens out to the hallway. She does have a large window beside it that could be used for entry but she wants to install a lock from the inside to lock her room down. Great if she is ahead of an active shooter but what if the shooter gets in and now the door is reinforced /locked from the inside? Also, their lock down measures are lights out,shades drawn,door locked. Now that causes issues for LEOs seeing what's going from the outside,not to mention a sunny day and trying to see in.

The great ideas for keeping you secure are an exact opposite if the shooter gets in a room. Now it makes it more difficult once a barricade situation takes place. .
And as near as I can tell, exactly what happened here. An active shooter got inside and used the measures put in place against his ilk, to stymie the "good guys."
 
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Gentlemen, the question in my mind about this situation, is why aren't you paying someone like me. My company pays me to drift along above the fray until it's time for me to engage. If I engage, that is at my discretion. If I engage, I have backing, right up through all the executive layers. My only mission statement is to be right.
 

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Gents, that may be SARS, with his impeccable credentials, but someone needs to play the devil's advocate
 

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Discussion Starter · #348 ·
Yes, I can pick locks.
Great. You stand in front of that door if by chance you were carrying your lock picking tools-lol How long would it take . Any good locksmith/safe cracker will tell anyone you never know how long a lock will take.
Have you picked that type of lock before? Maybe you could do it. But most patrol guys can’t pick locks
 

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Great. You stand in front of that door if by chance you were carrying your lock picking tools-lol How long would it take . Any good locksmith/safe cracker will tell anyone you never know how long a lock will take.
Have you picked that type of lock before? Maybe you could do it. But most patrol guys can’t pick locks
well, you would stand off to the side, kneel actually, with minimal exposure. Again, with a couple simple hand tools I bet I could’ve jimmied the latch open. I’ve done it before, not under fire though. And lock picks? Smaller than a pack of cigarettes.

now my whole point is that there were multiple options and ways to gain entry. Instead of making excuses for the Royal cluster **** I identify solutions that weren’t used. I mean, I thought the whole goal is to “learn and do better”. My bad
 

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well, you would stand off to the side, kneel actually, with minimal exposure. Again, with a couple simple hand tools I bet I could’ve jimmied the latch open. I’ve done it before, not under fire though. And lock picks? Smaller than a pack of cigarettes.

now my whole point is that there were multiple options and ways to gain entry. Instead of making excuses for the Royal cluster **** I identify solutions that weren’t used. I mean, I thought the whole goal is to “learn and do better”. My bad
I’ve got a set of lock-picks. I know a few officers who have a set. If lock-picks were the answer for dynamic crisis incidents, we’d have been using them for decades. They are hardly a new invention and law enforcement has been using them since the early days when we still drove chariots. We used them for stealth entries and for those times, when time and crisis aren’t an issue. Again.. people who have not walked a mile in our shoes trying to dictate what would work better next time. If a law enforcement brother can step forward and truthfully tell me that they would have used lock picks, then I will gladly listen to him. Debriefs by necessity work better when the participants have actually dealt with similar situations.
 

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I’ve got a set of lock-picks. I know a few officers who have a set. If lock-picks were the answer for dynamic crisis incidents, we’d have been using them for decades. They are hardly a new invention and law enforcement has been using them since the early days when we still drove chariots. We used them for stealth entries and for those times, when time and crisis aren’t an issue. Again.. people who have not walked a mile in our shoes trying to dictate what would work better next time. If a law enforcement brother can step forward and truthfully tell me that they would have used lock picks, then I will gladly listen to him. Debriefs by necessity work better when the participants have actually dealt with similar situations.
Well, if the actual problem was (which I doubt) that the door was locked and they had no key, it’s an option they could’ve spent 40min doing instead of…..nothing….. but I guess that’s not cool.
 

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Well, if the actual problem was (which I doubt) that the door was locked and they had no key, it’s an option they could’ve spent 40min doing instead of…..nothing….. but I guess that’s not cool.
I’ll preface this saying I have been on dozens of high risk search warrants in my career either as a door kicker or incident commander. Many of them were fortified narcotics locations. It has never taken us 40 minutes to enter any location. Granted, many times, I had the SWAT Team or a breaching kit with me, but there have been many times when it was just patrol guys. As far as lock picks go, we used lock picks exactly zero times. However, where there is a will, there is a way. Police officers are resourceful, and if they need to get into a location, pretty much they can. Doors are for amateurs. We’ve gone as far as knocking out entire walls. But regardless, if they really needed to get in, they could have. I suspect, but don’t know because I wasn’t there, that the decision not to make entry was a tactical one and not because they couldn’t. We’re not talking about a bank vault here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #355 ·
well, you would stand off to the side, kneel actually, with minimal exposure. Again, with a couple simple hand tools I bet I could’ve jimmied the latch open. I’ve done it before, not under fire though. And lock picks? Smaller than a pack of cigarettes.

now my whole point is that there were multiple options and ways to gain entry. Instead of making excuses for the Royal cluster **** I identify solutions that weren’t used. I mean, I thought the whole goal is to “learn and do better”. My bad
You have a skill set that most officers don’t have then. Especially those officers who aren’t in SWAT.
Do you think the public in its anti-cop furor would except regular cops getting trained to pick locks? How often does it come up that you would pull them off patrol to teach it or take the time away from other training that is now required like deesculation, EEO, CPR, Defib, CAT-T, EPD , sensitivity training, the range, legal updates, procedures updates, etc etc.
This is why SWAT was created. So they could be pulled from patrol and get the type of training like lock pick and other entry techniques.
And you still don’t know if you could have picked that particular lock unless you know that model lock already.
 

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If you're seriously thinking of trying to use a locksmith w/lockpicks to unlock a door behind which a shooter is hiding ... better make sure you have a backup locksmith.:whistle:

I've acquired a fair amount of experience with locksmiths picking and drilling locks. They seem to get nervous when they're kneeling in front of a door you're asking them to pick, or a property manager/owner is having them pick/drill ... while you and your partner(s) are are standing off to either side, out of the way of anything that might be coming through - or through - the door. Doesn't seem to make their hands any steadier. Weird, huh? :whistle:

Now, windows or suddenly opened sliding glass doors? Piece of cake. Crunchy underfoot, at times.
 
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Discussion Starter · #357 ·
I’ll preface this saying I have been on dozens of high risk search warrants in my career either as a door kicker or incident commander. Many of them were fortified narcotics locations. It has never taken us 40 minutes to enter any location. Granted, many times, I had the SWAT Team or a breaching kit with me, but there have been many times when it was just patrol guys. As far as lock picks go, we used lock picks exactly zero times. However, where there is a will, there is a way. Police officers are resourceful, and if they need to get into a location, pretty much they can. Doors are for amateurs. We’ve gone as far as knocking out entire walls. But regardless, if they really needed to get in, they could have. I suspect, but don’t know because I wasn’t there, that the decision not to make entry was a tactical one and not because they couldn’t. We’re not talking about a bank vault here.
Yep. After awhile, it was a tactical decision.
People keep calling these cops cowards and such. But these guys just chased a man with a rifle that would penetrate the vest they had on, shot it out with him in the hallway. Not an act of cowardness. Maybe they didn’t make the right decisions but it’s not cowardness in the truest sense.
 

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Let's not overlook that when BorTac entered with the ballistic shield, the shooter was waiting and shot the lead LEO in the head. Fortunately, it only grazed his skull (I assume he instinctively ducked).

Also, it was only a matter of time before the Blue/LEO Derangement Syndrome outed themselves! LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #359 ·
I read an article which I have no way of finding now that said BorTac attempted a breach and failed which prompted the search for the key. So even a tactical team who I assume had some sort of breaching equipment struck out.

As we know, outward opening fire rated doors on a metal frame are the toughest thing out there to get in.
If that happened and the SWAT team couldn’t enter without the key, normal patrol guys can’t be expected to do so.
 

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Did anyone read the recent press report from the Gov who says he was misinformed about the SRO engagement? That the SRO couldn't be accounted for and may not have been on-premises??

Likely would have eliminated the need for 358 unnecessary and speculative posts. Unfortunately this thread was started without confirmation of facts, just like what the MSM does
 
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