[SAR]

The streets of hell are paved with the bones of lieutenants that didn’t listen to their Senior Sergeants.

Hey, I resemble that remark. I spent 21 years at the rank of sergeant. Going on 6 years as a lieutenant. I generally allow my senior sergeants to run the show, until I don’t. And if I do have to step in, I rarely get much push back. Trust me, if I have to step in, things have gone real south, and I’m not that Lieutenant that’s going to make things worse. 🤣

 

[FiremanMike]

Hey, I resemble that remark. I spent 21 years at the rank of sergeant. Going on 6 years as a lieutenant. I generally allow my senior sergeants to run the show, until I don’t. And if I do have to step in, I rarely get much push back. Trust me, if I have to step in, things have gone real south, and I’m not that Lieutenant that’s going to make things worse. 🤣

For the love of God, please write a book

 

[Mayhem like Me]

Where I worked, a boss is the one who runs such a scene. A junior boss like a sergeant but it moves up as the bigger brass arrive. Not the tac teams themselves but rather the operation . Even the Alerrt active shooter training goes into the management of the scene for bosses from who is running the tac teams, staging area, EMT escorts etc.
Great training and war gaming

A boss, not the boss .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sgt127]

I spent 21 years at the rank of sergeant.

21 years as a Sergeant earns you quite a bit of respect.

Well done LT.

(I only had stripes for 17 years…and thought I was senior…sheesh)

 

[1cm]

Thor Eells, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association (NTAO), said the commander's determination was "100% flawed." A barricade calls for officers to slow down their response, analyze whether the subject is alone and negotiate, he said.

"If you're in a classroom with innocent victims and I know that shots have been fired, I need to engage you. Even if you stopped firing, I'm going to make entry into the room so we can begin to administer life-saving aid to any potential victims," Eells said.

The delayed police response in Uvalde runs contrary to well-established, commonly taught active shooter protocol established after the Columbine school shooting of 1999, Eells said.

 

[G29guy06]

The latest info I saw, is that 2 Uvalde officers were shot at through the classroom door, resulting in graze type injuries, after the shooter got into the classroom.

Pushing through a fatal funnel that the shooter is already shooting at seems like a losing proposition.

Sounds like CQB. Throw in a multi bang device and make entry on top of it after the first bang. Rookie ****

 

[G29guy06]

Just adding something to think about since they appear not to have had eyes on what was going on in the classroom.
You charge that fatal funnel and lose. What stops the gunman from moving to the next classroom?
How many rounds did you fire already? How many do you have left that point?
The gunman locked the door. How are you going to take that door? He may have been shooting through the door. Do you blindly return fire not knowing if he is using kids as human shields or not?
Too many questions right now. Hindsight is 20/20.
I am speaking of those cops outside those doors in the beginning who initially engaged the gunman before those quiet 911 calls from those kids came in.

I promise none of those kids are standing up straight in the room waiving for help.

 

[G29guy06]

Here is what they are saying now.

Texas PD condemned for letting school shooter rampage revealed

The standard operating procedure of the district's police chief, Pete Arredondo (pictured left) explicitly says that the officers needed to prioritize the students and teachers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

As I said, the real decision was made by those officers who didn’t press forward at the beginning. But that locked door was going to be an issue for them.
No one will see it in the cluttter of the critique of the cops, but those two unlocked doors is where all the difference could have been made.

I keep hearing about locked doors…extreme times call for extreme measures. A couple rounds through the lock area wouldn’t defeat the lock?

All the rooms are corner fed, like standard school room construction, and usually the walls are made out of some solid construction material like block. At any rate, those doors shouldn’t have been much of an issue.

 

[walkinguf61]

A boss, not the boss .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A boss over here is any one of rank, Sgt or higher. The sergeant is rarely THE BOSS except through personality and fear— sort of how more soldiers fear a good sergeant more than that Lieutenant that out ranks him.

 

[walkinguf61]

I keep hearing about locked doors…extreme times call for extreme measures. A couple rounds through the lock area wouldn’t defeat the lock?

All the rooms are corner fed, like standard school room construction, and usually the walls are made out of some solid construction material like block. At any rate, those doors shouldn’t have been much of an issue.

It works in the movies-lol.
In reality, it depends on the lock. It could make things worse. Especially with handgun rounds. A shotgun?That usually would work.

I think locked doors entries are going to be stressed more in the active shooter training in the future.

 

[walkinguf61]

I promise none of those kids are standing up straight in the room waiving for help.

You are working with hindsight. Could the officers see into the room after that door was locked?
Could these officers know if the gunman grabbed a kid and used them as a shield? Or even if the kids were behind/next to the gunman?

 

[GPalmer]

I just want to ask all the people who are screeching and wailing that the line officers and deputies in Uvale should have disobeyed orders and crashed the classroom for a list of rules, orders and directives that subordinate officers can routinely ignore and willfully break.
...

I'm sorry if it's different in your field, but I get paid to do the right thing. If management three levels up tells me this is what I need to do, and I disagree? They can **** right off. I have a long history of making the right calls under pressure and it gives me an incredible degree of discretion to operate. Those executives will demand my head on a platter if I'm wrong but so far, I haven't been.

Facing down a podunk little police chief? Let me count the ways I will steamroller him.

 

[1cm]

One would think the door/lock would be designed to defeat what gun/Ammo a typical school shooter would have.

 

[warbow150]

Sounds like CQB. Throw in a multi bang device and make entry on top of it after the first bang. Rookie ****

Just how many officers do you think carry NFDDs on them? Rookie ****? You’re kidding, right? Into a room with kids and unknown variables.

 

[G29guy06]

You are working with hindsight. Could the officers see into the room after that door was locked?
Could these officers know if the gunman grabbed a kid and used them as a shield? Or even if the kids were behind/next to the gunman?

No, I’m not. I’m stating a piece of common knowledge. None of the kids are in the room doing jumping jacks. I’m stating what’s been stated over the multiple pages: that this was a CF of epic proportions and after 23yrs of training and table topping on this subject it’s still a goat ****. I’ve actually had roles in modern active shooter training for the special people (LE). And I say “special” because apparently no one knows nothin except for LE…

The answer to this situation whether then or now (hindsight) is NOT “do nothing” which is exactly what was done

Thank you

 

[G29guy06]

Just how many officers do you think carry NFDDs on them? Rookie ****? You’re kidding, right? Into a room with kids and unknown variables.

How many carry them? Dunno but I suppose that answer will vary place to place. What realistic danger would a flash bang pose to the kids?

Whether they’re carried by regular guys or supervisors or not at all, or whether they’re trained to use a multi bang device and make entry on top of them is immaterial. It’s probably the best answer for the scenario.

How bout finding solutions instead of “do nothing”. Because once upon a time someone would’ve said “arrive on scene and move to contact?!? That’s ludicrous! What if this, that, etc”. And that’s exactly how it used to be, and how it changed or was supposed to have changed.

Either way, not my problem. But I do know how to handle the problem. It’s a CQB problem.

 

[warbow150]

How many carry them? Dunno but I suppose that answer will vary place to place. What realistic danger would a flash bang pose to the kids?

Whether they’re carried by regular guys or supervisors or not at all, or whether they’re trained to use a multi bang device and make entry on top of them is immaterial. It’s probably the best answer for the scenario.

How bout finding solutions instead of “do nothing”. Because once upon a time someone would’ve said “arrive on scene and move to contact?!? That’s ludicrous! What if this, that, etc”. And that’s exactly how it used to be, and how it changed or was supposed to have changed.

Either way, not my problem. But I do know how to handle the problem. It’s a CQB problem.

Let’s just say, sure, CQB drill was obviously a part of this, but I’m not going to get deeper into the NFDD thing with you. There’s a lot you might not know that isn’t appropriate to discuss here.

 

[G29guy06]

Let’s just say, sure, CQB drill was part of this, but I’m not going to get deeper into the NFDD thing with you. There’s a lot you might not know that isn’t appropriate to discuss here.

Well my PM box is open 24hrs a day

 

[walkinguf61]

I keep hearing about locked doors…extreme times call for extreme measures. A couple rounds through the lock area wouldn’t defeat the lock?

All the rooms are corner fed, like standard school room construction, and usually the walls are made out of some solid construction material like block. At any rate, those doors shouldn’t have been much of an issue.

It depends on the lock and the tools the officers had ( handguns, rifles, or shotguns). Some locks have a solid bolt that swings down rather than springs into the striker plate.A hand gun round is going to have a tough time with such a lock. Even a rifle would have issues with it. A shotgun with the right load would probably destroy the the door frame and lock around the bolt. Maybe even the door handle used to pull the door open, ( yes one can stick their hand in the hole to pull open the door). Using the key , quietly unlocking the lock and then use a rope on the handle to pull open the door for a dynamic entry makes chances of a successful entry higher. — the door pulls open rather than a good bum rush push in.
The school locks should be resistant to such shooting the locks tactics. The gunman isn’t stupid. They will try to shoot the locks to enter.

 

[G29guy06]

It depends on the lock and the tools the officers had ( handguns, rifles, or shotguns). Some locks have a solid bolt that swings down rather than springs into the striker plate.A hand gun round is going to have a tough time with such a lock. Even a rifle would have issues with it. A shotgun with the right load would probably destroy the the door frame and lock around the bolt. Maybe even the door handle used to pull the door open, ( yes one can stick their hand in the hole to pull open the door). Using the key , quietly unlocking the lock and then use a rope on the handle to pull open the door for a dynamic entry makes chances of a successful entry higher. — the door pulls open rather than a good bum rush push in.

There’s a lot of options other than what was actually done. Very true that knowing the door etc is useful to know which options are the better ones. The general doors we are speaking of, the locking mechanism can be defeated. Aside from blowing the door (not a likely option at all), defeating the door w/ firearms is an option as we mentioned but moving beyond that, you can manually defeat most of those locks w/ a couple simple hand tools or lock picks, and that can be done quietly. Need noise to cover the manipulations of the door? Sound the fire alarm. If cops had gone in earlier maybe they could have secured keys from the principal or custodial staff. I’m pretty sure the school has a Knox box on it also. I’m not willing to act or accept that a bunch of cops were simply confused by a standard school door.