[GPalmer]

Stand by on that report about their active shooter training. We don’t know if it was real training or just some lectures yet.

I saw a portion of their training from 2 months ago. They had actual hands on exercises.

 

[1cm]

Understand, I’m not making a value judgment here, but the shooter was definitely isolated, and almost certainly distracted by the presence of officers outside the door. He was not neutralized.

Everything I have read says he was still in room with live kids he had not yet killed. I would not call that isolated, maybe he was temporarily distracted, but certainly not neutralized.

 

[OLY-M4gery]

Yes, and they were metal doors too, so not easy. If only they'd been locked when the shooter reached them..

If the exterior door was locked.

If the classroom door was locked.

If the Uvalde school police officer had a master key for all the classroom door locks.

 

[1cm]

Yes, and they were metal doors too, so not easy. If only they'd been locked when the shooter reached them..

ISD had a locked classroom door policy.

It sucks how many little things could have prevented or reduced the count.

 

[warbow150]

Everything I have read says he was still in room with live kids he had not yet killed. I would not call that isolated, maybe he was temporarily distracted, but certainly not neutralized.

Again, not a value judgement, but that definitely qualifies as isolated in the greater context of the school as a whole.

 

[walkinguf61]

If that is true, those doors wouldn't breach easy. Barring heavy breaching tools, those aren't opening up, especially under fire.

Which brings us back to why didn't the school police have keys, or FD keys from the knox box.

It brings me back to why weren't they working on using the classroom windows to end this.

Someone should have been working windows if they had them . And were they big enough to enter thru. At a minimum, shoot the gunman through them if possible

 

[walkinguf61]

Both the Uvalde officers that entered the school 2 minutes after the suspect, were grazed by gunfire through the classroom door.

It's real easy to say, they needed to take immediate action, as a strategic concept.

It's another thing to say how YOU would breach a door, while the suspect is shooting through that door.

Absolutely. The decision not to attempt to breech the door by the initial units could definitely be justified especially if they knew how strong that locked door was. And how do we know that they were facing a locked door? They probably tried the door.

 

[1cm]

Understand, I’m not making a value judgment here, but the shooter was definitely isolated, and almost certainly distracted by the presence of officers outside the door. He was not neutralized.

The context of all three of those means not in a position to continue to kill children.

YMMV.

I also notice a lack of policy about the urgency of providing EMS support to possible survivors which is where I am going with Priority of Life. Surprising since this was an issue at Orlando/Pulse.

 

[walkinguf61]

The context of all three of those means not in a position to continue to kill children.

YMMV.

I also notice a lack of policy about the urgency of providing EMS support to possible survivors which is where I am going with Priority of Life. Surprising since this was an issue at Orlando/Pulse.

That was the big lesson from Orlando. I was fortunate enough to speak with someone involved in that operation as well take the active shooter management training after it occurred. It’s the incident that got the EMS escort detail added to the basic planning and staging area deployment.

 

[warbow150]

The context of all three of those means not in a position to continue to kill children.

I understand, and broadly speaking I agree. However, if you don’t have enough manpower to maintain the perimeter in the event of a failed breach, other considerations could come into play. I’m not saying they always will, but they could.

The bottom line is we don’t know the exact situation on the ground from the perspective of the responding officers yet. Not completely at any rate, and the situation dictates tactics.

For what it’s worth I’m firmly in the “aggressively locate and engage the shooter“ camp for these sorts of incidents, but I of course allow that varying circumstances could change that approach.

 

[1cm]

Agreed we do not know much about what happened in that hallway and how the decision making went.

DPS/McCraw opened the **** show when saying it was wrong decision without explaining the full decision process and options.

 

[ray9898]

I get we have a lot of experience and training in this forum. Many probably had the same training I have and I am sure many have a good bit more.

However, my view is still this was never a hostage barricade. It is not like he shot someone across the street and then eventually barricaded in the room with the children. Those children in that room were his targets. As long as he has access to more potential victims and his presence is stopping access to those who were in dire need of medical attention he is still classified as such. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt just because the shooting temporarily stops. He has shown his willingness to kill indiscriminately and that bell cannot be unrung.

I get why the sequence of events would cause someone to question their tactics, no one wants to force entry and have him start shooting again finishing off whoever was left alive because you pressed the fight. We all know if that happened the media and everyone else would question why they "barged in". But, you have to assume he is going to do that anyway due to his past actions. As I said earlier these children were his targets, not just human shields he happened to come across. It is a **** sandwich any way you look at it.

 

[fastbolt]

Understand, I’m not making a value judgment here, but the shooter was definitely isolated, and almost certainly distracted by the presence of officers outside the door. He was not neutralized.

The priority of life portion you posted does not mandate a breach / assault or specify any particular course of action for that matter.

Not everyone in the Public may grasp that policies and 'mission statements' are often written to sound good, but still allow (realistically require) latitude for broader interpretation and application when situations are dynamic and evolving. There's always going to be some inherent chaos which can influence how events are being interpreted in real-time, on the tip of the spear (so to speak).

Hell, there's always going to be ascending/descending layers of cops who may find themselves conflicted when faced with seemingly untenable choices, none of which may be comfortably pigeon-holed as 'best' within existing written policies and training strategies and tactics.

A good way to make one of many possible mistakes is to ignore the input from the line staff, and any supervisors, who are actively up front, looking down the muzzle of the problem, so to speak. One of my favorite screenplay lines from a recent movie, which has a foundation in off-screen, real life is "Let the painter paint".

Damn, though. The more the layers of this onion are being peeled back, the more it's creating more questions than answers, and you just know the eventual answers aren't going to sit well with anyone. This is going to be one of those incidents which will serve as training class discussion and study material in LE training for some time to come. The lessons to be learned from this will have been purchased at a very high cost in innocent blood, too. Dammit.

 

[walkinguf61]

Both the Uvalde officers that entered the school 2 minutes after the suspect, were grazed by gunfire through the classroom door.

It's real easy to say, they needed to take immediate action, as a strategic concept.

It's another thing to say how YOU would breach a door, while the suspect is shooting through that door.

But it would be their decision. Justified, maybe. People don’t realize that if they pressed forward and “ lost”, there would be no one there to stop him from attempting to go to the next classroom too.
Shooting back is also a tough choice not knowing if a kid is behind that door/wall. Also, the bad guy’s rounds could go thru the walls into the next classrooms.
But it was their decision.
I believe the attempt was made. That’s how they knew the door was locked.

 

[merlynusn]

I get we have a lot of experience and training in this forum. Many probably had the same training I have and I am sure some have a good bit more.

However, my view is still this was never a hostage barricade. It is not like he shot someone across the street and then eventually barricaded in the room with the children. Those children in that room were his targets. As long as he has more potential victims and his presence is stopping access to those who were in dire need of medical attention he is still classified as such. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt just because the shooting temporarily stops. He has shown his willingness to kill and that bell cannot be unrung.

I get why the sequence of events would cause people to question their tactics, no one wants to force entry and have him start shooting whoever was left alive. We all know if that happened the media and everyone else would question why they "barged in". But, you have to assume he is going to do that anyway due to his past actions, as I said earlier these children were his targets. It is a **** sandwich any way you look at it.

Im in the same camp. But our initial training and subsequent training was that once it becomes a barricade you hold and wait for SWAT. Same if the shooting stops, hold and wait for more people (assuming you were in a short team).

I think that this incident will change how these are handled in much the same way Columbine changed the response protocols. I think going forward its going to be locate and neutralize the threat asap.

 

[ray9898]

Im in the same camp. But our initial training and subsequent training was that once it becomes a barricade you hold and wait for SWAT. Same if the shooting stops, hold and wait for more people (assuming you were in a short team).

I think that this incident will change how these are handled in much the same way Columbine changed the response protocols. I think going forward its going to be locate and neutralize the threat asap.

You are probably right. I keep going back to the ALERRT training class I was in a few years ago. I vaguely remember a scenario where we were in a diamond searching for 2 shooters. We found them in a classroom, one was holding a student with a pistol to her head and the other was in the back of the room with a mix of casualties and others at gun point around them. We bogged down at the door because the lead guy started communicating with the guy with the hostage who was saying 'you come in and I kill her'. They ended up shooting the 4 or 5 students before we could react and enter. We were told then, an active shooter never gets the benefit of the doubt when surrounded by targets....they killed once they will kill again.

 

[Sgt127]

I was the SRO Sergeant. I had 15 Officers. Every officer had masters to their school. Maybe three keys, total.

I had great grand masters for every school. Every building. Up to and including the superintendents office.

If I ever found adoor I couldn’t open,ISD maintenance had it fixed by morning.

We were the city PD, assigned to the schools.

We had a big rival football game coming up. Doc A, deputy Superintendent said “Sarge, I want extra Officers!” I said, How many you want? He said “Hell, I want ALL of them!”

I said, that’s about 275…you good with that?

“Hold up now Sarge!”

Anyway, I had huge resources I could draw from. Everybody trained together. We had maps of every school in dispatch database they could sent to responding MDC’s. And, paper maps concealed in common places in every school.

I would be in charge until SWAT showed up. Never had an LT override me.

The streets of hell are paved with the bones of lieutenants that didn’t listen to their Senior Sergeants.

I had all the training. Manpower. Cooperation of the ISD I could ever hope for.

 

[Cochese]

The local DA feels the defendant saying "I didn't realize I was a felon" is an airtight defense to a prohibited person trying to buy a firearm from an FFL.

Felon in possession gets probation through the state courts.

Felon in possession in federal court, if the suspect qualifies as a "violent offender" gets 5-7 years. But it needs to be a rock solid case.

I'm glad other places do better.

The bigger issue IMHO, is that the same politicians that are demanding more gun laws, are often the same one demanding "bail reform", no new jails, and railing against "mass incarceration".

If they want more laws, they should have a plan when people don't obey those laws.

You are so very correct.

I ran into some of that crap on my initial cases. Now, I pull the DOC paperwork that shows they were advised by their parole officer that possession or ownership is a violation. I even compare that form signature with their 4473 signature. 😁

 

[Morris]

I'm going to wade into this from a former PIO perspective. Frankly, the entire dissemination of information was a giant golf foxtrot. They should have had a singular voice from the start and that same voice disseminating information throughout. A PIO collects the information, distills it to what needs to be said, answers what questions they can and shut down news conferences when they go sideways (akin to the Francis O'rourke dbaggery show). PIOs keep the message and information focused.

 

[warbow150]

Not everyone in the Public may grasp that policies and 'mission statements' are often written to sound good, but still allow (realistically require) latitude for broader interpretation and application when situations are dynamic and evolving. There's always going to be some inherent chaos which can influence how events are being interpreted in real-time, on the tip of the spear (so to speak).

Hell, there's always going to be ascending/descending layers of cops who may find themselves conflicted when faced with seemingly untenable choices, none of which may be comfortably pigeon-holed as 'best' within existing written policies and training strategies and tactics.

A good way to make one of many possible mistakes is to ignore the input from the line staff, and any supervisors, who are actively up front, looking down the muzzle of the problem, so to speak. One of my favorite screenplay lines from a recent movie, which has a foundation in off-screen, real life is "Let the painter paint".

Damn, though. The more the layers of this onion are being peeled back, the more it's creating more questions than answers, and you just know the eventual answers aren't going to sit well with anyone. This is going to be one of those incidents which will serve as training class discussion and study material in LE training for some time to come. The lessons to be learned from this will have been purchased at a very high cost in innocent blood, too. Dammit.

Absolutely. Nor should that come as a surprise to us in the LE community, given that a sizable portion of our own officers don‘t understand how policy was written, or even what a given policy actually is trying to say. Even fewer are thinking about chapter and verse of the policy/sop when they’re in the middle of a school shooting…blessed mercy to that, they have better things to do at the time. Policy / SOP / OPM composition is an art form and we as an overall entity often suck hard at it.

Regarding your last paragraph, yeah, it’s a mess. I‘ve not been following it nearly as closely as some around here and what I have read tends to, at times anyway, confuse me. There’s more bad info floating around on this one than I can recall with many of the others. I also think Morris is 100% spot on with his PIO comments. My little man is telling me this is going to go badly. But, I’m like Costanza…my little man’s an idiot. Just have to wait and see.