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In fact, when Bratton, the head of the NYC transit police told Ray Kelly, my cops can carry Glocks instead of revolvers. Kelly said “ no you can’t”. Bratton responded “ yes, I can.I run my own department “. Transit got Glocks but Ray Kelly kicked transit out of the NYPD academy where all three of us would train together. [ it’s Glock talk- I had to add that story in]
Since you mentioned it I have my own story. Not long after Bratton came to LA, he transitioned the Department to Glocks from Beretta 92F’s. One evening I was sent to go pick up Bratton at his home and transport him to the hospital where a wounded officer was being treated. During our ride, we exchanged small talk. I thanked him for allowing Glocks and told him I had recently transitioned myself. Without missing a beat he replied, “Don’t thank me.. I couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with a Beretta.” So that in a nutshell is how LAPD ushered in Glocks.
 

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Since you mentioned it I have my own story. Not long after Bratton came to LA, he transitioned the Department to Glocks from Beretta 92F’s. One evening I was sent to go pick up Braxton at his home and transport him to the hospital where a wounded officer was being treated. During our ride, we exchanged small talk. I thanked him for allowing Glocks and told him I had recently transitioned myself. Without missing a beat he replied, “Don’t thank me.. I couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with Beretta.” So that in a nutshell is how LAPD ushered in Glocks.
Unsurprising. Not like that's a one-off, either ... :whistle:
 

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Florist
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We recently had an ”Active Shooter“ incident at our Agency where officers wasted zero time in making entry and seeking out the bad guy. Lead guy on point had a rifle and he fired on the bad guy as soon as he made contact. Tragically, one round penetrated a wall, and killed a young girl on the other side. He’s being vilified in the media for rushing things and he’s devastated beyond belief.
I well remember this. LE today faces damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Internet Billy Badasses never, ever, ever, never have to face the realities of what they post.
 
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OLY-M4gery said:
They needed an IMMEDIATE response.
Thank you Captain Obvious for telling us they needed immediate response. If only you could go back in time and tell that to Pete Arredendo.

OLY-M4gery said:
Having a SWAT team that has to be activated, geared up, briefed, deployed, isn't immediate.
SWAT team does not have to be "activated, geared up, briefed, deployed". Members show up just like everyone else and do what needs to be done. The different is they should be more familiar with layout and have better training than some others. They literally trained for this 2 months ago.
 

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This is like a plane crash. There are multiple small failures that lead to a disaster. Had one or more of those small failures not happened, the disaster wouldn't have happened. But the school district police chief looks like the person that will get all the blame.

I also find it interesting, according an article about the school chief, that they had just hosted active shooter training 2 months prior. In the news article the training is described as training for an active shooter that becomes a barricaded suspect. I would like to know who where that training came from. Is it state approved training? What was the criteria for going from an active shooter to a barricaded suspect.

We should be also looking at

Exterior door blocked open

Classroom door not locked

When was the school placed on lockdown? ( I have heard AFTER the suspect entered the school)

How was the call of the suspect shooting outside the school dispatched? (I have heard man with a gun, not SHOTS FIRED)

Who had keys for doors inside the school?

Were lockdown drills ever held, if so how often.

Did the initial responding officers have long gun, breaching kits, ballistic shields?

etc, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #248 ·
Since you mentioned it I have my own story. Not long after Bratton came to LA, he transitioned the Department to Glocks from Beretta 92F’s. One evening I was sent to go pick up Bratton at his home and transport him to the hospital where a wounded officer was being treated. During our ride, we exchanged small talk. I thanked him for allowing Glocks and told him I had recently transitioned myself. Without missing a beat he replied, “Don’t thank me.. I couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with a Beretta.” So that in a nutshell is how LAPD ushered in Glocks.
Bratton was cool like that. An old transit guy told me how he and the boys were drinking beers in the parking lot after work one night. Bratton shows up. They think they are screwed. Bratton just says to them, make sure you guys just keep the noise down and went on his way.
 

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warbow150 said:
Speculation can of course be dangerous, but this is sounding more and more like a doctrine / training issue also contributed.
Seems to me like a single person failed majorly. Almost every other responder was excellent.

warbow150 said:
A). The order not to breach and assault made sense and was obeyed by those on scene.
It was a literally a violation of their own policy. They stopped before shooter was isolated, distracted, or neutralized.

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The stoppage also violates the Priority of Life policy.

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Discussion Starter · #250 ·
Thank you Captain Obvious for telling us they needed immediate response. If only you could go back in time and tell that to Pete Arredendo.


SWAT team does not have to be "activated, geared up, briefed, deployed". Members show up just like everyone else and do what needs to be done. The different is they should be more familiar with layout and have better training than some others. They literally trained for this 2 months ago.
Stand by on that report about their active shooter training. We don’t know if it was real training or just some lectures yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #251 ·
Seems to me like a single person failed majorly. Almost every other responder was excellent.
It depends on when this “ chief” arrived and made the decision. It’s really those cops in that hallway who made the first decision not to press forward. I would love to hear Alerrt’s assessment when all the info is available
 

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View attachment 1071933

Which way does the classroom doors open? From the hallway (where the LEOs are standing), do the doors open away from them or into them?
I just read an article quoting Rep. Tony Gonzales. He stated that the doors opened out.
 
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Thank you Captain Obvious for telling us they needed immediate response. If only you could go back in time and tell that to Pete Arredendo.


SWAT team does not have to be "activated, geared up, briefed, deployed". Members show up just like everyone else and do what needs to be done. The different is they should be more familiar with layout and have better training than some others. They literally trained for this 2 months ago.
Well Captain Obvious thanks you. But you still are not getting the obvious point.

You don't wait for anyone to respond to an active shooter.

Saying the SWAT member go in 1 by 1................... means they are not acting as a SWAT team.

Do what needs to be done. Sure, no planning just do what feels right.

I worked for a long time for a department that had part time SWAT. Even with 1-2 of the team members on duty, it often took a long time to get 1 of them on scene, and geared up.
 

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I just read an article quoting Rep. Tony Gonzales. He stated that the doors opened out.
If that is true, those doors wouldn't breach easy. Barring heavy breaching tools, those aren't opening up, especially under fire.

Which brings us back to why didn't the school police have keys, or FD keys from the knox box.

It brings me back to why weren't they working on using the classroom windows to end this.
 

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SWAT team does not have to be "activated, geared up, briefed, deployed". Members show up just like everyone else and do what needs to be done.
OK. Easy-peasy.
 

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walkinguf61 said:
It depends on when this “ chief” arrived and made the decision. It’s really those cops in that hallway who made the first decision not to press forward.
Amen We have seen the story change a lot in last days.

What happened in that hallway is gonna be ugly. At some time they had ability to get through those doors. Everything indicates it was a lot sooner then when they actually went in.
 

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It depends on when this “ chief” arrived and made the decision. It’s really those cops in that hallway who made the first decision not to press forward. I would love to hear Alerrt’s assessment when all the info is available
Both the Uvalde officers that entered the school 2 minutes after the suspect, were grazed by gunfire through the classroom door.

It's real easy to say, they needed to take immediate action, as a strategic concept.

It's another thing to say how YOU would breach a door, while the suspect is shooting through that door.
 

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I just read an article quoting Rep. Tony Gonzales. He stated that the doors opened out.
OK. Different effort needed breaching a door that opens away vs one that opens towards you.
 
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Seems to me like a single person failed majorly. Almost every other responder was excellent.



It was a literally a violation of their own policy. They stopped before shooter was isolated, distracted, or neutralized.



The stoppage also violates the Priority of Life policy.

View attachment 1071940
Understand, I’m not making a value judgment here, but the shooter was definitely isolated, and almost certainly distracted by the presence of officers outside the door. He was not neutralized.

The priority of life portion you posted does not mandate a breach / assault or specify any particular course of action for that matter.
 

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If that is true, those doors wouldn't breach easy. Barring heavy breaching tools, those aren't opening up, especially under fire.

Which brings us back to why didn't the school police have keys, or FD keys from the knox box.

It brings me back to why weren't they working on using the classroom windows to end this.
Yes, and they were metal doors too, so not easy. If only they'd been locked when the shooter reached them..
 
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