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He was also recently elected a seat on Uvalde’s city council. Wonder how that might work out now?
Probably with a vote of no confidence or a recall but who knows, it’s politics. I assume there’s at least a potential for a conflict of interests as well, with his being a sitting council member and a school district employee for the city, but perhaps there’s enough separation between the city and school district that it’s not a problem?

If there was something positive to say one would think he’d be feeding the press a little more.
 

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The PD had. SWAT team. This should have been a scenario they trained for
Was it a full time on duty SWAT?

Because it looks like 12 officers from the picture on a part time team.

That means they had other full-time roles at the department.

Not to mention there are generally 3 shifts, and they get days off.

So 12 divided by 3 shifts, plus days off mean probably 2-3 might be on duty at any given time.

So the other 9-10 aren't on duty. So all of them would have to be called in from of duty. How long does it take you to get to work if your boss calls and says "get in here, NOW".

Having a SWAT team, and having a SWAT team IMMEDIATELY available are two very different things.

Plus, it seems like the Incident Commander delayed breaching the classroom, waiting for a tactical team. I think that SWAT team was who he was waiting for.

Waiting is the wrong call.
 

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Discussion Starter · #223 ·
This is probably another one of those variables. There were six schools and the district admin building in the city my last agency covered. The officers had keys or accesss codes to each of them, including interior doors. I realize this isn’t practical everywhere, but a key should have been accessible sooner than it seems to have been. They were the School District Police Department, after all. We didn’t even have such a thing in my state except for the universities.
This could be like what happened on the titanic and the keys to the binoculars locker. The ship’s officer who had the key was transferred off the ship at the last minute and forgot to leave the key behind.
The officers were assigned to a different school for the day- the keys might have been left in their locker. Also, the keys might have been on one of the officers who was shot and then evacuated to the hospital ( I don’t know if that happened)
Like how when Reagan was shot, the nuclear code card was left in his jacket pocket, and his clothes were removed. They didn’t know where the launch code verification was for quite some time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #224 ·
Was it a full time on duty SWAT?

Because it looks like 12 officers from the picture on a part time team.

That means they had other full-time roles at the department.

Not to mention there are generally 3 shifts, and they get days off.

So 12 divided by 3 shifts, plus days off mean probably 2-3 might be on duty at any given time.

So the other 9-10 aren't on duty. So all of them would have to be called in from of duty. How long does it take you to get to work if your boss calls and says "get in here, NOW".

Having a SWAT team, and having a SWAT team IMMEDIATELY available are two very different things.

Plus, it seems like the Incident Commander delayed breaching the classroom, waiting for a tactical team. I think that SWAT team was who he was waiting for.

Waiting is the wrong call.
And is that SWAT team a multi agency one? Either way, it takes time for the team to form up as they are called to come in or from other parts of the county, then have to gear up, and plan.
The current active shooter protocol is go as you are. Aggressively .
They expect officers or a department to change their mindset on a dime. It doesn’t work that way. Hard chargers are what is needed. You can train up people to be that, but it doesn’t turn on a dime.
It’s time the LE community explain that to these woke policy makers
 

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Discussion Starter · #225 ·
Here is what they are saying now.


As I said, the real decision was made by those officers who didn’t press forward at the beginning. But that locked door was going to be an issue for them.
No one will see it in the cluttter of the critique of the cops, but those two unlocked doors is where all the difference could have been made.
 

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Here is what they are saying now.


As I said, the real decision was made by those officers who didn’t press forward at the beginning. But that locked door was going to be an issue for them.
No one will see it in the cluttter of the critique of the cops, but those two unlocked doors is where all the difference could have been made.
Locked doors? During an active shooter incident? No problem. During the UCLA Active shooter incident that I previously mentioned, only the Unicops had keys which led to our guys to breach locked doors, much to the consternation of the Unicops. This subsequently led to a flurry of calls to 911 that the active shooter was now tossing grenades, but I digress.

Again, reason number 365 that unless prior joint training or MOA exists, the local jurisdiction rules the roost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #227 ·
Locked doors? During an active shooter incident? No problem. During the UCLA Active shooter incident that I previously mentioned, only the Unicops had keys which led to our guys to breach locked doors, much to the consternation of the Unicops. This subsequently led to a flurry of calls to 911 that the active shooter was now tossing grenades, but I digress.

Again, reason number 365 that unless prior joint training or MOA exists, the local jurisdiction rules the roost.
It depends on the lock and what guys could do with a foot or a shoulder. I’m talking about those first guys, not some who might have a ram or another tool.
Local jurisdictions don’t always rule the roost especially when it’s some rinky dink village department or agency. Nassau county PD and Suffolk county PD don’t take a backseat to them. County or state police departments often won’t answer to the locals
In addition to NIMS, we had CIMS because of overlapping responsibilities between NYPD units like ESU , the fire department, corrections etc. Truff battles etc. It’s a whole section on our patrol guide that is more confusing then helpful
 

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Discussion Starter · #228 ·
More on the school “ chief” and the pushback on his decision
“But one cop who was on the scene told the Post that Arrendondo was wrongly blamed.
“It’s a lie that [Pete] Arrendondo told everyone to stand down,” said the officer, who didn’t want to be named. “It’s a lie. And we’re all getting death threats. It’s a f—g nightmare.”

 

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When I was an SRO I had the master key to the schools. I kept it when I left just in case. It was a huge ordeal to get it too. This was after about 15 years of having SROs without keys. It was an ordeal because usually the key comes with alarm codes and they were afraid we would use those off duty.

It was bureaucracy defined.

If there are no shot being fired then it is no longer an active shooter. It's an unsecured homicide scene. If you don't know the status of the suspect then it is really dicey. If you know he is holed up somewhere with hostages then you have to start planning the hostage rescue. How are you getting in? Are there any ways to distract him from the entry team? If he is dead or isolated then just start getting injured out.

It's a **** sandwich and the only way it goes away is one bite at a time.
 

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OLY-M4gery said:
Was it a full time on duty SWAT?

Because it looks like 12 officers from the picture on a part time team.

That means they had other full-time roles at the department.

Not to mention there are generally 3 shifts, and they get days off.

So 12 divided by 3 shifts, plus days off mean probably 2-3 might be on duty at any given time.

So the other 9-10 aren't on duty. So all of them would have to be called in from of duty. How long does it take you to get to work if your boss calls and says "get in here, NOW".

Having a SWAT team, and having a SWAT team IMMEDIATELY available are two very different things.

Plus, it seems like the Incident Commander delayed breaching the classroom, waiting for a tactical team. I think that SWAT team was who he was waiting for.

Waiting is the wrong call.
Part or Full time should not matter. They should have coverage worked out, otherwise the SWAT team is window dressing. SWAT callouts almost never get advance notice of an event. If VFDs can figure it out, so can they.

100s of LE from dozens of jurisdictions showed. The BP who killed him was off-duty. The BP who evac'ed kids was off-duty in a barber shop and jumped up and showed up. They made it there in minutes, did the local SWAT?

If they did, did the ISD Chief tell them to stand down?

I aint the only one asking:

Where Was Uvalde P.D.’s SWAT Team? | KLIF-AM
 

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Part or Full time should not matter. They should have coverage worked out, otherwise the SWAT team is window dressing. SWAT callouts almost never get advance notice of an event. If VFDs can figure it out, so can they.

100s of LE from dozens of jurisdictions showed. The BP who killed him was off-duty. The BP who evac'ed kids was off-duty in a barber shop and jumped up and showed up. They made it there in minutes, did the local SWAT?

If they did, did the ISD Chief tell them to stand down?

I aint the only one asking:

Where Was Uvalde P.D.’s SWAT Team? | KLIF-AM

View attachment 1071910
You can ask all you want.

The problem isn't you asking.

But if you ask a question, you should be ready for an answer even if it doesn't fit your views.

They needed an IMMEDIATE response. Having a SWAT team that has to be activated, geared up, briefed, deployed, isn't immediate.

Even if the SWAT team was 1 minute away, patrol officers SHOULDN'T wait for then.

The officers on scene need to confront the active shooter without delay.
 

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If he is found to be at fault for anything pull the stars and have him swallow them all.The metal ones not some stitched on cloth.
Hat Military person Motor vehicle Military uniform Soldier

EVEN THE LAW CAN HAVE "STOLEN VALOR"
 

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Local jurisdictions don’t always rule the roost especially when it’s some rinky dink village department or agency. Nassau county PD and Suffolk county PD don’t take a backseat to them. County or state police departments often won’t answer to the locals
It all depends,, As an example, the City of Los Angeles surrounds on all sides, the cities of San Fernando, Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, and Culver City. Any Active Shooter scenario is on them, and they would absolutely rule the roost if we came in unless they voluntarily relinquished control to us. The City of San Fernando might, but Santa Monica and Beverly Hills? Not a chance in hell would they ever defer to LAPD.
 

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Speculation can of course be dangerous, but this is sounding more and more like a doctrine / training issue also contributed. I obviously wasn’t there, but usually officers with eyes actually on the scene have at least some limited authority to exercise initiative if orders become untenable or if opportunity arises. The fact that nobody on scene seems to have done that until BP arrived tends to indicate:
A). The order not to breach and assault made sense and was obeyed by those on scene.
B). The order was, at some point, not longer viable but no one on scene felt they had authority to countermand it and proceed with a breach / assault.
C). The order to delay was perceived as incorrect but they lacked the ability to breach.
D). There was a butt ton of confusion and nobody felt strongly enough to exercise their own initiative.
E). Perhaps no such order was issued and this is another bit of inaccurate info.

At any rate, there was a period of inaction which, rightly or wrongly, was adhered to by all present. And quite a few were present. I have no earthly idea of the realities they were addressing during this period, I’m sure they had quite a bit of info we don’t. But, for whatever reason, either all at the scene either agreed with the delay, didn‘t feel strongly enough to act in the presence of a flawed order, or couldn’t do anything about it.
 

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'A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field,' ...
Duh. That ought to go without ever having to be said ... but apparently it needs to be tattooed among some folks working in modern policing. Or made into a mural-sized 'inspirational poster' that's at the front of every briefing room and on all the walls of all locket rooms. Then, make sure there's one predominantly displayed on the wall of the Sheriff or Chief, facing their desk. Sigh.

Then again, I remember feeling sad when I saw a new section added to the GO's which described cowardice as prohibited behavior, thinking it was ridiculous it had to be spelled out in the GO's as something that wasn't right. Welcome to the new world of modern policing in America??
 
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Discussion Starter · #237 ·
It all depends,, As an example, the City of Los Angeles surrounds on all sides, the cities of San Fernando, Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, and Culver City. Any Active Shooter scenario is on them, and they would absolutely rule the roost if we came in unless they voluntarily relinquished control to us. The City of San Fernando might, but Santa Monica and Beverly Hills? Not a chance in hell would they ever defer to LAPD.
I know what you mean but this is a school without enough officers to even conduct anything on their own at this point in the incident. Four officers, one detective, one chief in the whole department.
We used to have more turf battles before Transit and Housing merged with “ big blue”. In fact, when Bratton, the head of the NYC transit police told Ray Kelly, my cops can carry Glocks instead of revolvers. Kelly said “ no you can’t”. Bratton responded “ yes, I can.I run my own department “. Transit got Glocks but Ray Kelly kicked transit out of the NYPD academy where all three of us would train together. [ it’s Glock talk- I had to add that story in]
Turf battles happened between departments in other things as well as precincts, and between individual cops as to who’s arrest it is.
 

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At any rate, there was a period of inaction which, rightly or wrongly, was adhered to by all present. And quite a few were present. I have no earthly idea of the realities they were addressing during this period, I’m sure they had quite a bit of info we don’t. But, for whatever reason, either all at the scene either agreed with the delay, didn‘t feel strongly enough to act in the presence of a flawed order, or couldn’t do anything about it.
Let’s not forget that this is 100% the fault of the bad guy who caused this… That being said, there’s always a risk and I think that’s what every officer thinks about when making the decision to go in or not.

We recently had an ”Active Shooter“ incident at our Agency where officers wasted zero time in making entry and seeking out the bad guy. Lead guy on point had a rifle and he fired on the bad guy as soon as he made contact. Tragically, one round penetrated a wall, and killed a young girl on the other side. He’s being vilified in the media for rushing things and he’s devastated beyond belief. Again.. I try not to forget that it was bad guy who caused this.
 

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Which way does the classroom doors open? From the hallway (where the LEOs are standing), do the doors open away from them or into them?
 

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Speculation can of course be dangerous, but this is sounding more and more like a doctrine / training issue also contributed. I obviously wasn’t there, but usually officers with eyes actually on the scene have at least some limited authority to exercise initiative if orders become untenable or if opportunity arises. The fact that nobody on scene seems to have done that until BP arrived tends to indicate:
A). The order not to breach and assault made sense and was obeyed by those on scene.
B). The order was, at some point, not longer viable but no one on scene felt they had authority to countermand it and proceed with a breach / assault.
C). The order to delay was perceived as incorrect but they lacked the ability to breach.
D). There was a butt ton of confusion and nobody felt strongly enough to exercise their own initiative.
E). Perhaps no such order was issued and this is another bit of inaccurate info.

At any rate, there was a period of inaction which, rightly or wrongly, was adhered to by all present. And quite a few were present. I have no earthly idea of the realities they were addressing during this period, I’m sure they had quite a bit of info we don’t. But, for whatever reason, either all at the scene either agreed with the delay, didn‘t feel strongly enough to act in the presence of a flawed order, or couldn’t do anything about it.
Perhaps a "F Section" might be added, covering the dismaying possibility that active shooter training and doctrine had essentially been more or less window dressing up until that point, and once the rubber met the road it all fell apart.

Kind of like how someone can sit through repeated training sessions of first responder first aid, and be given a really nice first aid kit in the veh ... but then something nasty and bloody happens and all that classroom training, listed in the training file, fails to be effectively utilized and the contents of the first aid kit are dumped on the ground.
 
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