Glock Talk banner
1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
Bad part about a hostage situation is that anyone he shot previously is bleeding out.
I know it’s early days and there’s a lot of bad info moving around at present, but I‘ve not yet seen anything about him taking hostages. I’ve read he had barricaded himself in a classroom, but obviously a barricaded gunman is a different equation than a hostage scenario.

Anyway, I’d like to see something a little more reliable than the evening news. Perhaps a preliminary AAR will tell us a bit more.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
Sheriffs/police chiefs - and by extensions their communities - have to be willing to spend more on training. Officers absolutely cannot be proficient at dynamic entry, gunfighting, and hostage/victim rescue without proper (valid, current tactics taught be SMEs), frequent training and practice. If they want their patrol officers to aggress and stop an active shooter such as in a school, they absolutely have to do more. Good training costs time and money.

With low staffing, training time is more precious than ever. Regulatory agencies like POST need to eliminate mandatory training that isn’t there to win fights and solve crimes. Pretty much if it doesn’t require a safety briefing and a first aid kit on site, then it isn’t worth cutting a chunk of time out for.

Pony up.
I think the amount of money and time spent on training for these is a big variable across the country. Some places I know really got after it, especially in the wake of Sandy Hook. Single officer response is now basically considered the default setting for most of the departments mine worked with, and many of them trained their officers in it as much as they could while still keeping the lights on in the squad room.

On the other hand, there’s no doubt in my mind that many organizations haven’t gotten with that particular program yet and would be much slower. Hopefully they‘ll catch up.

Obviously staffing the right kind of officers helps, too. If they don’t bite when they‘re puppies they usually won’t bite much at all when it’s needed. I worry many departments are getting so desperate and liability gun shy that the raw material for five years from now isn’t, broadly speaking, as up for it as it was 20 years ago.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
@warbow150 (Since the @#$% reply/ quote widget won't work as is now usual!)

If a gunman is barricaded in a room with multiple persons who are not his willing co- conspirators, those people are, by default, his hostages.
Sure, I agree. I just haven’t read anything which indicates that’s what happened. Just because he’s in a class room doesn’t mean it’s occupied.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
I have a question though. If in a barricade/hostage situation, you start hearing gunfire within, what’s the course of action then?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
That’s a variable depending on the known objective realities at the time. Situation dictates.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
I think I would have to go with an active shooter, in a school, cannot become a hostage taker as he has exhibited his desire to kill kids.

He remains an active shooter that must be neutralized as soon as possible. Period. If at all possible.

As long as he is alive and functional, we can’t start treating victims. If he decides he wants to go back to killing his hostages, while you are attempting to contain him or negotiate with him, he can easily kill 2-3-10 more kids before you can react.

So. If I were still teaching active shooter, as I did for 15 years or so, you go in. You hunt him down and, you kill him. Or, you find him proned out begging for mercy.

The pursuit of him does not stop. Does not take a break.

In an hour, he could have boobie trapped the room. ( See Breslan). Even if your not hearing shots, he could be strangling them. Stabbing them.

Tough words in an era where cops are beaten to death with In Service talks about de escalation. Dealing with the mentally ill, and the looming charges when they have to kill a threat to children. I’m sure someone would still be upset.
Usually (damn, it sucks we can use that word, there’ve been so many of these) I agree. Generally, go to the bad noise and make it stop. Push the shooter until he surrenders or is killed. However, as in Beslan, if they do get dug in with all those dead man switches, a breach / assault might not be the right choice. Of course, that whole thing was just different on a whole other level.

Move to contact and engage the bad guy(s), unless it’s the wrong choice. Then do something else.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
Anyone know what the school protocols were? A while back while they were teaching ALICE, for example, lockdowns were primarily for external threats, but once the bad guy was inside some schools had an evac plan to move away from the shooting. I’m just wondering if there was a communication failure, there usually is, that lead to a class door being opened when it should not have been.

It’ll be interesting to hear, if we ever get to, the instructions given inside the school, by school personnel, to school personnel during this thing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
We can’t blame the press. It was the information give out to them at the official news conference
That’s true, some of it was from LE sources and that’s on us. Other info, such as police just “waiting” for 40 minutes seems to have come from civilian sources who were simply speculating about what LE was doing. As police we’re definitely responsible for the accuracy of the info we put out to the media, but there’s a good deal more circulating about this shooting than what was released by LE. The media has shown itself happy to use unverified info in the quest to get something out. (Broadly speaking of course. There are of course some ethical outlets and reporters out there.)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
Well if you read the article you would hear where the TX DPS is straight out saying the on scene commander made the wrong decision.
I’m not sure what the relationship between the school district PD and Texs DPS is. Is the SDPD part of TXDPS? In some states it clearly would not be, but I don’t know about TX.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
Rule number one in my book , agency heads should never take command of a crisis situation . They are too removed from reality to make the right call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think a lot depends on the individual agency and the individual head but, yeah, many heads just need to go deal with other things.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
No matter the size , they have other jobs and being point in a fast moving crisis / tactical decision is a horrible combination I have never seen it end well.

Their job is to get the support needed and keep the politicians and media at bay . When they are added into the decision making mix it's a disaster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In my opinion only, yes and no. If it’s a smaller rural agency they might be among the first on scene, the most experienced, the best trained, and the cavalry might be 30 minutes away. They’ve got to get stuck in and get the job done.

Agencies where there’s more depth and a broader talent pool? Absolutely keep the suits in their safe place and let those in the correct role handle business.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
This situation should have been over in 30 minutes I am not talking about a 2-5 man response . As a general rule the boss has no business running a tactical crisis scene .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Of course I agree that in an ideal world the chief isn’t running the tactical scene. As you know, better than I, I suspect, the world isn’t always ideal. For larger agencies the boss can and should let the on scene experts handle it. Stay the hell out of the way and do Chief stuff. For smaller agencies this simply isn’t always an option. If there’s only a few boots on the ground and one of them is El Jeffe, he’d better be taking charge and doing grunt work, at least until he can be relieved by someone else.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
Edit: Steve just beat me to it.

I’m a little surprised the School District Officers didn’t have their own emergency access keys, fobs, or codes. They certainly should have had them.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
I work for a larger agency and the way it works is that the incident commander is generally a sergeant or a lieutenant. They are actively running the tactical incident. However, when Captains and Commanders and Chiefs start to show up, the incident commander will ask if they are assuming incident command. In almost all circumstances, the command staff will defer to the tactical incident commander because they don’t want to or can‘t run an active tactical operation. That being said, inexplicably, some command staff will try and interject and give directions anyways. It’s totally disregarding incident command protocol, but it’s not unusual for a member of the command staff to override a tactical decision made by the incident commander. In the past, we have had some infamous incidents when things went terribly wrong, and the command staff tried to throw the incident commander under the bus for a decision the higher up made. In the end, it becomes a mess settled in the courts, and usually results in a retirement or two.
Yes, I agree. That’s a great way of working scenes, if the chief can be left to chief stuff.

My last gig before retirement was as chief of what you would consider a small department, 21 sworn. Sometimes the hard rule of numbers kicks in and you have to get more in the weeds than you’d prefer. It’s just life in a small agency. We trained our guys and gals hard, everyone went to active shooter training at a minimum, many had previously been with swat or were still on the regional team. But, sometimes we were just too thin in the ground for me to just observe from a distance. C’est la guerre.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
@1cm
Which brings up another issue to consider as to why it's probably not a good idea to have the chief of the smaller agency designated as the incident commander for a multi- agency response.
I think the issue at hand has less to do with agency size and a lot more to do with tactical competence.

I know some truly gifted tactical officers from small agencies who I’d want in charge of a scene over several less skilled ones from large departments. Of course, the reverse is also true.

I know a lot of upper echelon admin types who cut their teeth in big departments, amassed vast experience, then moved on to small departments for one reason or other.

Agency size is a consideration, but far from the only one when it comes to selecting the commander for this sort of thing…if it even drags on long enough for those kinds of discussions.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
They probably do….to the schools they are assigned. No one seems was assigned to this school.
Housing and Transit cops know… keys are life. Even if it’s just the key to use the bathroom.
And another question is, is there a master key or are all the classroom locks individual keys. An SRO can’t carry that many keys for every class room for every school if that is the case
This is probably another one of those variables. There were six schools and the district admin building in the city my last agency covered. The officers had keys or accesss codes to each of them, including interior doors. I realize this isn’t practical everywhere, but a key should have been accessible sooner than it seems to have been. They were the School District Police Department, after all. We didn’t even have such a thing in my state except for the universities.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,548 Posts
He was also recently elected a seat on Uvalde’s city council. Wonder how that might work out now?
Probably with a vote of no confidence or a recall but who knows, it’s politics. I assume there’s at least a potential for a conflict of interests as well, with his being a sitting council member and a school district employee for the city, but perhaps there’s enough separation between the city and school district that it’s not a problem?

If there was something positive to say one would think he’d be feeding the press a little more.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top