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We are training officers not to use force if at all possible. De-escalation, no pursuit policies, etc while scrutinizing officers that use any level of force. Not to mention not arming patrol officers with long guns.

I know someone will say NYPD doesn't have long guns, except ESU. Well, if you work for a department that had 24/7/365 "SWAT" coverage you can do that. Since the other 99% don't have "SWAT" coverage 24/7/365 they need a different plan.

But then we all act surprised when an active shooter incident happens and the on duty patrol officers don't act like ninja-seal-green berets.

I'm not sure exactly what happened in this incident. But my guess is a combination of "it can't happen here", and we don't want to be too gung-ho, created a level of complacency.
 

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"Ramos barricaded himself inside a fourth-grade classroom — “and that’s where the carnage began,” McCraw continued.
The cold-blooded killer sprayed a hail of bullets into the room, cutting down 19 kids and two teachers and sending some students jumping out windows in a bid to save their lives."

I'm basing most of my theory that Ramos was barricaded in the classroom and that's where most of the killing occurred on this statement from the TX DPS spokesman, FWIW.

But, as others have said, there are still a lot of competing narratives out there. I imagine there will probably be a thorough after- action review like they did in Broward County after this one.
If you are an active shooter, and you lock yourself into a room with victims, you are a barricaded ACTIVE SHOOTER, not a barricaded suspect.
 

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Why is it, that the same politicians that don't want suspects convicted of crimes sent to prison/jail, or requiring cash bail, are the same ones that want to make more laws after incidents like this?

Maybe if we vigorously investigated, and prosecuted crimes committed by armed suspects, and made sure every "gun crime" that resulted in a conviction ended with a jail/prison sentence. Maybe then we would change behavior.

I know locally, no "prohibited persons" that try to buy a gun from an FFL, and get rejected during the background check get prosecuted. No one goes to jail for illegally carrying/possessing a firearm. Violent criminals that get charged with "felon in possession of a firearm" get sent to federal court, because the state courts don't treat that crime seriously.
 

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“At a back door on the west side of the school building, Ramos was confronted by a school resource officer — though McCraw said “gunfire was not exchanged”

But then:

“Somehow, Ramos was able to get inside the school as the officer “followed him in immediately” and then gunfire was exchanged, McCraw said”

The SRO did exchange gunfire with him inside the school and then he got into a classroom. The gunman locked the door, and shot up the room. The SRO was hit by gunfire in their exchange.
I think you are assuming.

Per Texas DPS, 2 Uvalde police officers arrived at the same time as the SRO. The Uvalde officers exchanged gunfire with the suspect in the school.

CNN
 

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This is exactly why I'm not injecting my opinion. We are being fed too much contradictory information right now. This really needs an unbiased investigation before we know what took place.
Yeah. I have the feeling by the time this ends up analyzed, it will not look like a good response.

Supposedly the suspect crashed his truck. Then shot at 2 people outside a funeral home across the street from the school. Then shot at the school.

It's allegedly 16 minutes from the crash until the suspect gets into the school. Which seems like a long time, especially if the suspect is shooting after the crash.

But just yesterday, I was reading about a Sheriff's Office getting lambasted for having "military armaments" in CA.

They had an MRAP, 5 HMMV's, 40 mm grenade launchers, M4 carbines, and MP-5's. Not to mention 11 commercial drones. The comments were full of people decrying the militarization of police, and wondering why police would need such weapons.
 

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Todays presser said otherwise. There was no LE presence of any title on campus when he entered and started shooting.
I think you are jumping to conclusions.

Uvalde schools have a 4 person police department.

The current timeline, subject to change, indicates a Uvalde schools police officer, called an SRO in reports, and 2 Uvalde police officers arrived on scene. They were met with gunfire from the suspect. I believe all 3 were injured. They retreated, and requested "additional resources".

So there was an SRO, b ut the timing of when the suspect was confronted is still in flux.
 

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New info as reported on the non-cop forum

There might not have been an SRO



The suspect walked into the school and was not confronted by a school resource officer, Escalon said. He said media reports stating otherwise were inaccurate.

Once inside the building, the gunman walked into a hallway and then made his way into a classroom, Escalon said.

"Four minutes later, local police departments, Uvalde Police Department, the Independent School District Police Department are inside, making entry," he said. "They hear gunfire, they take rounds, they move back, get cover. And during that time, they approach where the suspect is at."
All of the information at the intial press conference might be wrong
Pretty sure the school district police officer is getting called "SRO" in the initial reports.

The question of when that officer got there, and what they did is still in flux.

But SRO or school district LEO, is a battle of semantics.
 

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No

My info is up to date as of an hour ago

There was no LE presence on the campus and the door was unlocked and he walked in un contest.

He also engaged some folks at a funeral home after he crashed the car before he entered, but that did not initiate a lockdown.
You said there was no SRO. Let me remind you of your post, from the last page.

Huh?

There was no SRO. This entire thread is based on a false premise.


That was an entire post, by you. Go check it from the last page. We will wait.

Now, you are saying that there was no LE presence on campus. Which is different than what you posted.

You are right, there was no LE presence on campus.

No one confronted the suspect when he entered the school.

However, 2 Uvalde police officers, and a Uvalde school police officer confronted the suspect after he was inside the school. I believe all 3 officers were injured as a result.

So there was an SRO in that initial response.

Who did what, when, is still in flux.
 

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Now there’s an idea. Have a “panic button” they wear as a pendant that when pressed locks all the doors.
The problem is you need someone to be willing to push that button.

Maybe I missed it in the reports, but I haven't heard that the school was locked down.

The suspect took 16 minutes, allegedly, from crashing his truck, shooting several rounds, to entering the school.

An exterior door was unlocked, and he accessed an unlocked, occupied classroom.

How is it possible that a suspect is outside a school shooting off rounds and the school isn't on lockdown?

Surely they could hear the gunfire.

Was the suspect shooting at 2 people, who were across the street not reported to 9-1-1?

If 9-1-1 took calls of shots fired near a school that is in session, did 9-1-1 call the school to inform them of the shots?
 

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Shields, breaching equipment and training should not be a luxury for agencies. It's damnable shame that the Biden Administration and their ilk won't see that and fund that rather than worrying about little used LVNRs. The money recently spent on supporting Ukraine could have paid for shields, breaching tools and compensation for training time for every agency in the US. Hell, all the money spent on Ukraine over the last three months could have paid for added physical security to nearly every rural or small school district in our country. But politicians want dead kids to push their agendas and will blame agencies for the failures rather than appropriately harden and secure schools.
Because a week from now the narrative will switch back to don't militarize the police. That and "it never happens here".

There is so much bad info to sift through.

The SRO engaged the shooter prior to entering the school......... no, the school district LEO arrived on scene after the suspect was inside the building.

The suspect was wearing body armor............ no, a tac vest, w/o armor plates.

It seems once Border Patrol LEO's went in they couldn't breach the classroom door until a school staff member provided a key.

This also seems to be one of the few active shooters that actually engaged the police, instead of running away or committing suicide when the police arrived.

But, any analysis of this, or other mass shootings, will include people that want the answer to be guns are evil. So it will be tough to get meaningful changes as a result.
 

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The timeline has changed again. Supposedly it's 5 minutes from the crash to the suspect entering the school.

Also the school LEO might have arrived on scene while the suspect was still outside, but didn't see the suspect.

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19 LEO's were supposedly inside the school, after the suspect barricaded, but before the BP entry team arrived.

The incident commander decided to treat it as a barricaded subject. Even though they were getting 9-1-1 calls from inside the classroom the suspect was barricaded in, by a teacher and kids, throughout the incident.

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OTOH, the doors to the classroom were apparently pretty stout. Attempts to breach them by force failed. The doors were opened with keys.

Breaching a strong door, under fire, seems like a pretty easy way to get killed.

I don't know many LEA's that are handing out heavy duty door breaching equipment to patrol officers.

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This was not a good response, but it is also unusual in the suspect engaging the police when they arrived. Usually active shooters flee or commit suicide when the police get there.

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There also seems to be criticism that makes sense in a sound bite world. Uvalde has a part time SWAT that wasn't available for this incident.

I wonder how long it would take for anyone to get to work if they were called out of the blue, with their boss "yelling get in here!!!"

If you have resources that are not ready to go when trouble starts, it means you don't have those resources.

If you want to judge responses you have to judge them realistically. Capt Sully could have made it to an airport and landed safely, IF he had veered toward the runway immediately after striking those geese. But no one in real life acts that way.

Miracle on the Hudson
 

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A question was the class door a steel vault door or the 2 inch hardwood.Any pictures.And if he shot thru it why Would not the police? there was a ton of ar-15s on scene or was that 3 hours later for photo op's. And after it is all said and done. what are they patrolling with armored tank type vehicles for other shooters that they missed.I watched and heard hours and hours of footage. door picture please.
and the nine cops in T shirts and team ball caps with glocks with one mag? or maybe more. I would like to see cell phone capture from all those police in that hour.IF anyone knows the door types and equipped police on site. let us know.
So you think blindly firing through a door into an occupied classroom is a reasonable idea?

Not only are the news talking heads claiming the police didn't do enough, but they are now questioning "friendly fire".

They want a more aggressive police response, but don't understand forcing your way into a room with a suspect and innocent people to get into a gun fight with the suspect might result in some bad outcomes.

I wonder what the walls are made of in that school. Because if you get into that gunfight, inside a room, with rifles.................. I'm pretty sure round will be going through walls.
 

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I still want to know why a person shooting outside a school didn't result in a lockdown.

Apparently, the lockdown was only called AFTER the suspect was in the school, and not everyone heard it.

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Also according to that last news report I linked, info wasn't going from the 9-1-1 center to the incident commander.
 

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Well they said all the kids and teachers had all been killed in first five minutes so yeah shooting thru door might work or did he have the 19 children and 2 teachers bodies stacked by the door. I am asking a question and yes I have been in gunfight situations ambushed on patrol.and scared.but fired and got the fwuck out alive.sometimes you take a risk.and win.seems I just asked a question no arguement with you.and if you cant act civilly with another forum member and answered the door question and how many charged in shooting. Sorry to upset you.
He was thought to be a barricaded suspect with hostages.
 

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Thank you for the correct info. Too much chatter/false info
But what I meant was the patrol guys who first engaged with the school cop(s). They should have pressed the attack if possible. If the shots stopped when that chief took command then the chief was right. If the shots with the students happened with initial engagement, those officers made the decision
The latest info I saw, is that 2 Uvalde officers were shot at through the classroom door, resulting in graze type injuries, after the shooter got into the classroom.

Pushing through a fatal funnel that the shooter is already shooting at seems like a losing proposition.
 

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The room layout I posted earlier shows the 2 rooms each with a door and connected. Shooter might not have been able to cover both classroom doors at same time. A distraction may have worked. This is where the ISD/PD should have had expertise and trained for this type of entry.
I think you could cover both doors to the hallway from the door between the 2 classrooms.

The ISD is a 4 officer department.

I think hitting 2 doors, at the same time, is a much higher level of skill than can be expected.

Most school doors that I have seen, are solid core wood door in a metal door frame. I think most generally open out. So breaching those won't be an easy task.

I want to know if there were exterior windows. Those can great for surveillance and other things.

I want to know which teacher propped open an exterior door. I would also like to know when the school went on lock down.
 
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