Air Force Ejection seat M4

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by Haldor, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. GP4L

    GP4L

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    Sure, but you're cherry-picking in attempts to win our debate.

    This fantasy about a pilot that's already ejected from their aircraft, remaining undetected while shooting at a bunch of enemies searching for them isn't even close to reality. The caliber their rifle is chambered in, is literally the least of their problems, in this scenario. And if they needed to use their rifle, things have already gone even more horribly wrong. /end
     
  2. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    Shhhhhh! Don’t tell all the guys on here that insist an 8”, 10” or 12” AR is the ultimate HD tool!

    —————————————————

    As far as this idea... no because ammo compatibility... sort of...

    You are 100% correct that ammo compatibility is not an issue for this specific application in terms of the guy on the ground. No argument there at all. 300 Blk is the superior choice for that guy.

    But as the saying goes, “....Professionals talk logistics”. Adding another ammo type that has to be shipped and routed to the right specific units, etc adds significant complexity to the logistics operation. If there are just two types of small arms ammo 5.56, and 9mm that can go to any unit, logistics is much cheaper and easier.

    Special forces is a separate issue, but they are expensive to equip and maintain in the field for that reason. This is just an isolated application in a backup function, in limited numbers. It’s just not worth it to issue special equipment.

    The military doesn’t give everyone the best possible equipment, it gives everyone equipment that is adequate for the mission, provided by the lowest bidder.

    Not every application can get the kid glove handling of special forces. It would be completely unaffordable.
     

  3. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    How is it cherry picking to suggest a comparison of either supersonic to supersonic or sub to sub instead of your actually cherry picked comparison?

    If you get forced to ditch/eject/PL/EL you’ve already had a bad day.

    And, it’s worth noting there are quite a few examples of aircrews getting into running gunfights while trying to evade capture during VN. Which is part of why the Army elected to keep a rifle for each crew member in all of our rotary wing aircraft. It’s also why the AF is electing to include a rifle in the survival kit.

    It’s last choice to shoot, but sometimes you have to.

    Lastly, as a almost 20 year aircrewman who toted a crash bag for many a flight hour, and PL’d in Iraq, I can safely say I would have been very happy to have a suppressed option for my rifle, incase I had to use it. :cheers:
     
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  4. Haldor

    Haldor Formerly retired EE.

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    A pilot isn't worth special treatment?
     
  5. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    It’s interesting that the SF helicopter guys went back to rifles from MP5’s. Almost like they knew something.
     
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  6. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    it’s a backup system for an unlikely event that provides a minimal marginal benefit. If the pilot is getting into a lot of firefights, he’s screwed, period.

    No. Its not worth special treatment. You’ve got to think like an accountant.
     
  7. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    Well if it keeps that multimillion dollar investment alive through one firefight it’s probably worth it.

    and since the AF don’t seem to agree with you, perhaps that line of thinking is flawed.
     
  8. faawrenchbndr

    faawrenchbndr CLM

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    your thought process is flawed
     
  9. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    The military, whose job it is to think about these things, seems to agree with me.
     
  10. Big Bird

    Big Bird NRA Life Member

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    Yep...eject into a desert with 110-120 degree daytime temps and 24 ounces of water and your life expectancy is measured in hours--especially if you are hurt or need to move anywhere quickly during the day. I'd take more water over that stupid carbine any day of the week...
     
  11. dkf

    dkf

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    If they made a .300blk version they could call it the "GAU-5D Dirt Squirrel"
     
  12. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    how do they agree with you? They’re spending a ton of money on a QD barrel AR-15 instead of just breaking the upper and lower and using the MK-18 that’s in inventory.....
     
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  13. faawrenchbndr

    faawrenchbndr CLM

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    you are free to believe what you like
     
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  14. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    Well considering the whole thread is about whether the military made the right decision, and I said they did.....

    Yes, the military and I are in agreement. LOL

    That’s just a fact.

    You are free to continue to be as petulant about it as you like, but it won’t change the facts.
     
  15. Haldor

    Haldor Formerly retired EE.

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    You missed the point that this already is a specially made carbine. And obviously the AF thought a battle rifle of some kind was worth it or they would have stayed with just a pistol. Arguing that a pilot doesn't need a rifle doesn't mean anything to the subject being discussed. A 300 BLK barrel doesn't cost much if anything more than
    A 5.56 barrel and a suppresor is very inexpensive to the government. Nothing else besides the ammo is changed.

    My point is if you are going to take the trouble to create a special rifle for a pilot survival pack, then why not make a minor modification that will improve the terminal ballistic performance and provide a covert advantage that should be useful to someone who is trying to remain undetected.

    Please explain how having a suppressed weapon hurts the pilots chances? Especially when it makes the same weapon more effective at longer range.
     
  16. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    If you reread my post, I agreed the proposed option is probably better for the pilot.

    My point was that it adds to logistics complexity. Logistics is MUCH more important to overall victory than small improvements to a backup system that is unlikely to be used.
     
  17. ThomasM4

    ThomasM4

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    Both sides wrong both are trying to save money 1 by not changing and the other by adopting something that already been worked out.
    Neither side is not spending enough money. They will change just enough of the .300 blk so they can get away from calling it that and dump untold millions getting it in production.
    :flag:
     
  18. MikeFL86

    MikeFL86

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    No need to worry. The military by and large doesn't use M193 anymore and they're phasing out M855 for M855A1. They also have MK262 and MK318 in the pipeline, both of which perform well out of short barrels.
     
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  19. Parzival

    Parzival

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    all i can see in the post is people arguing over who has the largest or best purse at this point.
     
  20. GP4L

    GP4L

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    Shhhh! You're gonna upset the .300blk fanbois!!
     
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