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You can't get a production gun that is exactly like the Wilson - if you could, what would be the point of ordering the Wilson if the performance was exactly the same?
Are you claiming that a Wilson, any Wilson, is automatically a more accurate and/or reliable shooter than a plain jane model?

I don't doubt that a Wilson is better made with lots of attentions to details than a typical factory gun. But to make the claim that it's a better performer...I'd like to see it to believe it.
 

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You gave the impression the WC Professional recoiled differently because it was a expensive custom gun. More a issue of physics than cost.

It does recoil differently because it's an expensive custom gun - all of the "hang a weight off of a Kimber" is nonsense as to do that you'd have to have a gunsmith rework the gun - and then the Kimber becomes a custom gun.

It may be simply physics, but to get the benefit - you have to pay for it as the configuration is not available in an off-the-shelf production gun - is it? You seem to want to dismiss the fact that you have to pay to get certain features.

Okay. How about: trigger with no creep and 3.5 lb pull, flush cut slide stop, extreme dehorn, carry cuts, adjustable combat rear sight with yellow tritium inserts, front sight large green tritium insert, strong side safety only - all of this makes it more usable for me and you can't get these features in a production gun.

Can you have all of those features in a production gun? Sure - pay a gunsmith or buy the parts and do all the work yourself. Either way, when the gun has all of those features, it's now a custom gun and NOT a production gun.

Is the price of the Supergrade worth it? I guess that's a personal value judgement. When all of the features are part of a Supergrade - you have a Wilson Supergrade in value. If it's a modified production gun, it's a Kimber (as an example) with a lot of work in it and unless the work was done by a name gunsmith you still only have a Kimber.
 

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Are you claiming that a Wilson, any Wilson, is automatically a more accurate and/or reliable shooter than a plain jane model?

I don't doubt that a Wilson is better made with lots of attentions to details than a typical factory gun. But to make the claim that it's a better performer...I'd like to see it to believe it.
I'm only saying, that generally, you get what you pay for. Whether it's worth it or not is a value judgement you have to make for yourself.

I'm saying that if you choose the gun carefully, then yes - it will be a better performing gun in a number of ways - some are in shooting characteristics while other are in handling / use.

I can only tell you that so far four out of four people can tell the handling / shooting differences between the guns.

That's certainly a small sample of gun owners and not statistically significant, but then I don't know 1,500 people to test the guns and really don't care to setup a full blown documented test with a formal, written test plan just to satisfy someone on an Internet forum.

I find differences between the guns - I'm satisfied and that's what I care about.

If you're ever going to be in Albuquerque, NM please contact me and we'll go to the range, shoot guns side-by-side and you tell me whether you think different guns handle differently. I do - you may not. Either way it's hardly going to make a difference in my life - but, we would still be having a good day shooting guns.
 

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There's more to a custom gun than accuracy measurements. Yesterday at the range, I put out three 1911's - a Dan Wesson Valor, a Wilson CQB, and a Wilson Tactical Supergrade Professional. Each of the guns handled and shot differently - with the Supergrade Professional providing the best recoil management of the three, giving the ability for faster follow up shots.

You are comparing three different guns that are build to different spec's. To say that the WCSG shot better for you is fine. To say it recoils better for you is fine.
To give the impression it handles recoil better because it cost more and not for the 3 ounces of dead weight hanging off the barrel gives the wrong impression.



If you think there is not a difference between guns - I'd suggest that if you have the chance to shoot a custom gun, to do it and critically compare the custom gun to a production grade gun side-by-side and make a critical evalution between the two.

Same as above.

I can tell you that my wife shot her VBOB and then my Supergrade Professional and she could tell the difference in how the guns felt in a direct comparison. The guns are the same size and form factor and within 3 ounces in weight.

Hang 3 ounces off a DW or a Kimber Pro barrel and see if the recoil feels the same as the WC. If the same loads,FPS, and sprung identical I doubt you would. If you sprung the Kimber lighter, the Kimber would feel better.
Now you're just being purposely contrary and contentious. Using your logic, a 1963 Buick Skylark could be made to be competetive in North American Road Racing production class by "Simply rolling a Corvette chassis and motor under it."

Sort of minimizes the real amount of work required...and is just plain silly as are your comments.

The FACTS are that the Supergrade handles better because of the features that are the result of how it's designed and built. The other FACT is that if you want those features you have to pay for them in some way. If it's buying a Wilson that's one way, if you hire a custom gunsmith and have it built for you - that's another way, and if you build it yourself - that's a third way.

ALL of the ways can result in the same feature set and are going to involve some cost above and beyond the base pistol price. All of the ways will result in a custom pistol.

All I'm doing is attempting to answer the OP's original question about Baers, Wilsons, Browns, etc. and their advantages. Apparently, you want to argue about this and disparage anything that may be construed as being beneficial.

Your impressions are whatever they are going to be as you obviously have some kind of an agenda that purposely puts aside design features and minimizes benefits. Can't help you with that one sport.

I'd suggest you stick with your Kimber and "hang a weight off the end of it" - won't be nearly as functional, will look sort of strange - but that will apparently prove some point you're attempting to make. I just want to know how you're going to easily get it into and out of your inside the waist band holster...
 

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I'm only saying, that generally, you get what you pay for. Whether it's worth it or not is a value judgement you have to make for yourself.

I'm saying that if you choose the gun carefully, then yes - it will be a better performing gun in a number of ways - some are in shooting characteristics while other are in handling / use.
Okay, I'll buy that. Handling is a big difference if good mods are done to the grip frame area and mated to well made grip panels.

If you're ever going to be in Albuquerque, NM please contact me and we'll go to the range, shoot guns side-by-side and you tell me whether you think different guns handle differently. I do - you may not. Either way it's hardly going to make a difference in my life - but, we would still be having a good day shooting guns.
I'll take you up on it. I am planning to be home for Christmas and I'll bring a couple Colts with me. We will do the side-by-side thing just for the fun of it. Might have to go to Caliber unless you want to brave the cold at Double Eagle Airport gun range.
 

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Funny, I don't see it that way at all. :dunno:
I wasn't trying to be. I was just trying to address the issue of how you can't compare the recoil of one brand to another brand and declare a "winner" if the two guns are not the same basic spec.

In other words a RIA GI Government is a superior gun to a Wilson Combat Sentinel .... because the RIA recoils less.:dunno:
 

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The trigger on a high end 1911 should be enough to improve most people's shooting, as they tend to be lighter, crisper, have less-take up, and less over-travel. This can also aid in faster and more accurate follow-up shots.

Accuracy should be better in a high end 1911 because the builders use match barrels/bushings and hand fit them. There are plenty of very accurate standard 1911's, but nobody can really argue that you have a better chance of getting an accurate one with a hand fitted match barrel.

High end 1911's should hold up better to daily carry, because the owner can specify high-end durable finishes.

There are lots of reasons someone might want a high end 1911.

A $100 Casio keeps better time than a $10,000 Rolex. That doesn't seem to hurt Rolex's business.

The argument against high end 1911's is weak. You can spend $100,000 (easily) on a Purdey 12 gauge. Will it be $99,000 better than a Browning?
 

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Discussion Starter #69 (Edited)
I am extremely appreciative of all the information. I guess I stirred up a hornet's nest.

I do have the bug bad and tomorrow I think I will check on a Valor bobtail or even a Smith bobtail for a carry piece till I really make up my mind what to do.

My gunsmith slowpoke buddy has my 80 series almost done he says, the 460 Rowland kit is fitted along with a match barrel in .45.(he says almost done...) He is building me a couple more too. The titanium Caspian framed commander will probably take him to the end of the next year, I bet and I'd like a nice carry piece till he's done.

I just need to go shoot a 1911. I can't make up my mind, hell, I even own a GAP.

Thank you all again.
 

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I am extremely appreciative of all the information. I guess I stirred up a hornet's nest.

I do have the bug bad and tomorrow I think I will check on a Valor bobtail or even a Smith bobtail for a carry piece till I really make up my mind what to do.

My gunsmith slowpoke buddy has my 80 series almost done he says, the 460 Rowland kit is fitted along with a match barrel in .45.(he says almost done...) He is building me a couple more too. The titanium Caspian framed commander will probably take him to the end of the next year, I bet and I'd like a nice carry piece till he's done.

I just need to go shoot a 1911. I can't make up my mind, hell, I even own a GAP.

Thank you all again.
I highly suggest the DW VBOB between those two choices. :thumbsup:
 

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TTM65
That wasn't meant to aggravate you. But as you said, there are big differences between custom built, and hand fitted readily available parts.

Years ago I had the pleasure of visiting a guy named Fred Wells in Prescott AZ. He manufactured Pre-64 Model 70 actions out of the materials of his clients choosing. The caliber would determine the action length, and he could even machine the barrel as part of the action, as a single piece. He literally had a scaled down model 70 22 LR he made for one of his grandchildren. Scope mounts were literally machined as part of the actions in some of his guns. The client would choose the wood on the spot at his shop. Besides these, he literally made custom one-off actions, of his own design. He showed me a one off rifle he was in the process of delivering to royalty.

To me, that is the definition of a custom made gun.

What you are describing to me that you do, doesn't sound much different than Nighthawk or Fusion. That's not meant as a slam so please don't take it as such.
Springer,
Sorry for the long delay in getting back to you. I came home for Christmas break and ended up having a small accident followed by a couple of surgeries. I agree with you on the difference between custom from a block of steel and hand fitting parts. Both are customs just of different types. We have made 22 caliber bolt action rifles for the unlimited class that are made from one large barrel blank. To explain, the barrel and receiver started from a 2.5" barrel blan, the receiver was cut from there as well as the barrel profile etc.
As for pistols, each and every one is made from 80% frames that we complete. No I do not make barrels or safties, that would be a waste of time when there are so many avaiable. The work is in the fitting.
We also do a few other things such as WWII parts kits build and the video of the 10/22 I will post below. It is an open bolt conversion we did and the short burst you hear is 10 rounds being fired. I did not fire more as I did not have a larger mag with me. This one is just the prototype. BTW, Yes I have an 07 and SOT and DD license.
The damascus photos are not complete as I did not used to take lots of pics before. The customer wanted a basic 1911 and one with flat top, mag well etc. Take into consideration they were not finished the photos were taken. When my new damascus order arrives I will post lots of pics though.



http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm203/ackf/?action=view&current=open1022.mp4
 

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My favorite pistol from a shooting and a mechanical fitment perspective are the Sig P 210 target models,,, like a Brown or Wilson the parts just have so much quality and attention to detail in fitment.
 

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My favorite pistol from a shooting and a mechanical fitment perspective are the Sig P 210 target models,,, like a Brown or Wilson the parts just have so much quality and attention to detail in fitment.
I have a Sig P210-6, and it is a nice handgun. It's a very nice (and very dated) handgun. It fits my hand better than any of my other handguns, but it would be way down my list if I could only have one.
It's fun to shoot on once and a while, but I wouldn't buy another, considering how expensive it is.
 

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I'd be curious as where you heard that.
Shoot one and you'll understand. I enjoy and appreciate them and apparently, so do a ton of other people, as Wilson is backlogged app. 5,500 guns with a 10-12 month build time. I could care less about what others say, it's what you, the consumer, determines is a value to what you want in a product. By the way, I also have, and enjoy immensely, several Glocks.
I have an XTAC on order and was told by John the sales manager it's 2500 guns and 5-8 month wait
 
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