accuracy problem w/27

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by 870 ExpressMag, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. 870 ExpressMag

    870 ExpressMag

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    So I used to own a G23, my home was broken into in 2009 and it was stolen. I shot it pretty well. I am more of a rifle/shotgun guy than a pistol guy but I shot it fairly well. Well the break-in has screwed with me mentally, and have since replaced the 23 with a 27. I havn't shot it much but it always shoots low/left for me. Went to the range the other day with my bro who has a 27 and 23. I shot both of his and they shot the same way, so he shot mine and had no problem. So i decided it's me. Then I found if i relax my grip, i can make very tiny groups! But the problem I have is it makes me feel like the pistol is jumping out of my hands....if i grip it a little tighter, we are back to low/left. How do I get rid of this? I shot his 23 thinking it was the 27 that was not fitting me like the 23 used to, but it did the same thing.
     
  2. RYNOCG201

    RYNOCG201

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    Sorry to hear about the break in it is one of my fears but at least no one was hurt, material things can be replaced. I would say lots and lots of dry fire trigger control practice. Concentrate on where the trigger breaks and watch the front sight for movement. Slow controlled trigger pull straight to the rear. While at the range you could have your brother load up some mags with a snap cap or two inserted at random to see if you are flinching during the shot. Could also double as malfunction clearance practice. Good luck!
     

  3. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Pick the grip that you like. With my 26, I Iike pushing forward with my strong hand's heal and web of thumb, while my weak hand middle fingers are pulling back on top of my strong hand middle fingers. The stubby 26 grip is caught in a vise.

    Now for learning purposes, slow your trigger pull down. Take 30 seconds to slowly and consistantly pull the trigger back toward the rear sights. You do not want to exactly know when during that 30 seconds your gun will go BOOM! You want what is called a surprise break.

    While one half of your brain is pulling the trigger, the other half is keeping the sights aligned and on target.

    In my opinion, you really need to learn how to do this in slow motion. Then later, you can speed things up but still actually do it the same way you do it slow.

    Good luck :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  4. 870 ExpressMag

    870 ExpressMag

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    thanks for the tips guys, i went out today and ran 4 or 5 mags through and tried to concentrate on doing stuff right, slowing down and following through, even tried the tight vs looser grip and still tended to shoot left. i can consciously correct and get the shots level, but they still go a little left. when my brother shoots it his all hit at 12 oclock. when i shoot they hit at 7-8 oclock or when i concentrate, they hit at 9-10 oclock.
     
  5. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Ok, then next sit at a bench to practise what I described above. Ideally rest the gun on sandbags. Kat litter works too.

    It only takes being a little bit off in your sight alignment to frick things up. Use sight picture 2:

    [​IMG]

    What bench rest shooting will allow you to do is work on the building blocks of sight alignment, holding the sights on target, and trigger control. Focus only on the front sight and make sure there is an even amount of white space on each side of the front sight. Do this while slowly pulling the trigger. If you skip this bench work, you will be too busy trying to hold the gun steady out in front of you to learn these things properly. It is also a good idea to do this with a .22 so you are not concerned about recoil.

    But with the centerfire, get some snap caps or dummy rounds and have someone load them into the magazine for you. If the gun only goes "click" but the front sight moves, you will feel silly. This will reveal you are flinching from the anticipation of the recoil. Instead you want to hold the sights steady and not know if the gun is going to go click or BOOM!
     
  6. highfructosecornsyrp

    highfructosecornsyrp

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    theres an image that describes the location that your bullets are going and why it is going that way, it's like a pie chart, you can find it if you search. What you're talking about is a VERY common issue with striker fired guns. It's that jarring "snap" when the striker is released that exaggerates whatever direction you happen to be pulling the trigger.

    Dry fire it while holding the sight picture on a target, lamp, doorknob, whatever. Watch how the sight picture jars just slightly to the left and down when the striker fires. That millimeter or fraction of a millimeter of movement equals an inch or so at 7 yards.

    You're pulling across and down on the trigger. Pull the trigger straight back and the jarring effect of the striker firing won't exaggerate your "pull" in an errant direction, it'll be inline with the bore of the gun. It's trigger control and it requires more attention on a striker fired gun than on a hammer fired one.
     
  7. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    You sound like you are on to something, so I want to learn from you.

    Low left is obviously common with Glocks and right handed newbies. Pulling the trigger straight back obviously corrects the problem. We agree there.

    What I don't yet understand is why should a striker be different from a hammer? Both guns will have a jarring when either the striker or the hammer is released, won't they?

    I've always assumed the low left with a Glock is from the spongy build-up of pressure in the trigger. Where as with a single action, there is a shorter wall. With a Glock you are forcing the trigger back, fighting it, a longer distance, and end up pushing the gun left by time you actually fire. With a single action you have no resistance until the final wall and then just need a short tug to break through, often creating a low right. The wild card here is the double action trigger that seems to commonly also go right. So, I'm assuming, there is something about the feel of the Glock trigger itself that has the shots pushed left instead of pulled right.

    But now you are saying it is more in the striker itself.

    We agree as to the solution, but the cause is still interesting :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  8. arushus

    arushus Biggest Member

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    I habe a G27, and a G20sf, and with both I shoot left, sometimes low and left, but I seem to be getting better and resolving whatever the issue was that was making me go low, but now, my groups are all always a couple of inches to the left of bullseye. The more I think about it, the more I realize, I may be "milking" the grip. I think thats what it is called. While Im pulling the trigger back, and I know its about to break, instead of only my finger continuing to move back, Im squeezing the grip with the rest of my fingers also. I know, I know, the break should be a surprise....well that is sooo much easier said than done!!! But I think Im improving, the more I concentrate and practice on my grip not being too tight and milking the grip, and making sure Ive got enough finger on the trigger while focusing on the front sight, I keep getting better...
    I really need to get some snap caps, I just havent yet...
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  9. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Understanding the problem puts you well on the way to fixing it :)

    The reason why I like the bench so much for these learning issues is because it allows you hold the gun steady for a long time, without getting tired. You hold that gun, resting on sandbags (or bags of kitty litter, or something similar), and you have time to relax and time to think.

    If you move the trigger slowly enough, the surprise break is easy. I recognize that many people do not have patience, and they just want to stand there blasting away Hollywood style :) But if you make it a mission to find a place with a bench, and sit down and take your time, I think the beginning shooter will learn a lot.

    Like I said, slow that shot down. 30 seconds to move the trigger its entire path to firing. That time begins from when you actually start the trigger moving. If you slow the trigger pull down that much, you won't know when the shot will actually break. You can't help but to have it be a surprise.

    The steady rest, aligned sights, aiming at the same place on the target each time, and a slow steady trigger pull with a surprise break, and you can't help but to shrink your groups down and increase your accuracy.

    The change in group size when going to the bench and working on those fundamentals will be dramatic and a mind altering experience :)

    Then you just have to connect what you are doing at the bench with how to do that while standing. That transition is not easy, but it really can be done, given the basic building blocks you establish at the bench.

    Typically, the first problem someone will have in going from the bench to standing is that the gun is moving and they can't hold it still in front of them. But even so, they should try to shoot exactly like they were at the bench. Very slow and steady trigger pull, and surprise break. But what about the movement of the entire gun? Doesn't matter, as long as you perfectly keep the sights aligned, and reasonably keep those sights on the target. You can't stop the movement, and you don't try to, you just reduce it best you can. You don't try to suddenly pull the trigger at the right moment. Instead, you get the sights aligned, get them on target, mentally accept that the sights are moving back and forth across the target (but keep the front and back sights aligned like shown in the diagram I posted above), and slowly and steadily begin the slow trigger pull. While one half of your brain is keeping the sights aligned and on target, the other half of your brain is slowly and steadily pulling that trigger. At some time, but you don't exactly know when, BOOM!. Take a break, lower your arms to a 45 degree angle, rest your elbows on your stomach or sides, keep the gun pointed safely downrange a bit (not at your feet, but a couple yards out in front of you), breath, relax. Then do the same thing all over again. BOOM!

    What you will find is that your group will be centered around the target you are aiming at. Your groups made while standing will not be as small as those you made while sitting at the bench, but you can work over time on making them smaller, holding steadier. Based on your work at the bench, you will know what your gun in your hands is capable of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  10. Duck of Death

    Duck of Death

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    *QUOTE*
    I havn't shot it much

    Hmmm!!, shoot more and learn to do a trigger job. I shoot mine every day, odd days weak hand, even days free style.

    It has a 2lb no take up trigger, and shoots fine.
     
  11. aaronmj

    aaronmj

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  12. ORHunter79

    ORHunter79

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    Low left usually indicates anticipation of the shot.

    How to fix it, muscle memory. Shoot it a lot more.

    Also pay special attention to your grip and above all trigger control.

    Let the shot surprise you as you squeeze the trigger. Notice I didn't say pull.
     
  13. truetopath

    truetopath

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    I actually had the same problem with my 27 and I saw somewhere in a different thread on this site to add a little more finger to the trigger. At first I didn't believe that would help but it did incredibly and now I shoot much better groups without the low left problem.