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Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by Little Joe, Feb 14, 2010.
What would you consider acceptable split times for self defense shooting from 25 feet in?
A slow HIT is better than a fast miss? That's what I would call acceptable. JMO
Inside 25'... as fast as you can maintain a fist sized group at the range (which will degrade to "minute of man" accuracy under extreme duress).
Whether that's .15 sec or 2 seconds is irrelevant, accuracy trumps speed every single time.
Is the person/threat shooting back, moving, has a knife, has a undetermined backdrop behind them (know your target and what's beyond) driving a car, is holding a gun/knife to my kid's head...what?
Different scenarios call for different tactics.
For example, if they are shooting back, my 1st priority is to find cover -which I should already have identified and be moving towards from the onset of "real threat" assessment.
Don't get so fixated on the "gun".
Good advice, Drew. "Split times" being a competitive phrase, used solely to judge the interval between shots, and shorter being better--it has no application in judging anything related to self defense.
Here's what I'd tell ya; shoot as quickly as you can get hits--ANY hit. To borrow from Rob Pincus for a second, 3 things determine how much deviation control you need; the target (size, movement, etc), your confidence level, and the perceived consequence of a miss.
If those 3 things ae a solid "go", you can shoot very quickly. Every element that isn't wholly there slows you down by necessity.
Now, are ya going to run down that list in the middle of a self defense incident? No, you are not. It's sub-conscious. You aren't going to be worried about split times because the only thing that matters is survival; this ain't a Bill Drill, rights?
If my advice was good, yours is the best response I've ever seen to this type of question! I could not have pieced those words together as clearly and as eloquently as you did to address the question asked.
Acceptable splits? Whatever is needed to get the hit.
I agree with you all. My question arises from a discussion on the usefulness of 45+P ammo. A lot of guys seem to think, without giving the times, that their split times suffer too much using +P. I was just wondering if there was a train of thought on what was acceptable. I appreciate all your inputs.
The bottom line is, I'm very comfortable with my ability to put accurate, sustained fire on target plenty quick enough using +P. I actually enjoy taming the beast. LOL
Not sure anyone has ever taken the time to measure it. They were too busy trying to shoot and not get shot.
My question to you would be: Would you make changes to your gear (gun, holster, holster position or ammo) that would negatively impact those "split times"?
For example, use +P ammo, instead of the generic stuff, if +P ammo increased those splits?
That sounds like the wise thing to me.
Sure, if there was a good reason. Such as, if that was all that was available, or I needed greater concealability, but I would also practice that much harder to make up that time.
That will all depend on how you train and what courses you have taken and then practiced on a routine basis. In the early 1990's when I got into Competetion Shooting (shooting and firing 8000 rounds a year) I could do sub 1 second draws from a Competetion holster with a G21 and put a hole in the A or C zone at a target 7 yards away with a random timer BEEP. Now I can do a 1.5 second draw from CCW with a G-19 into a IPSC target into the A or C zone. I am taking a Close Range Gunfighting course in the next 3 weeks that I hope to improve shot timing and accuracey. YMMV. If you cannot get your gun out of your CCW holster and get a bullet on a target in the A or C Zone (IPSC Target not bullseye) at 7 yards in under 2 seconds, you need to get some serious training and repetition on the drills.
I'll set the timer to a 2 second par and see how I fare. Thanks.
SHooting w/ a timer, I find that +P 45acp does slow down my times a bit, but enough to matter, probably not. Still, I see little benefit it the extra recoil vs effectiveness of the std ammo. If you can get your gun out & two on target in under 2sec, you xan always practice to improve that. Then of course, throw in movement, you &/or the target, low light, etc.
I see what you are saying.
I find that recoil from a 185 grain +P is similar to a standard pressure 230 grain.
I'll say that if you are standing in one spot to make that hit... you're doing it wrong.
Same as the golfer who hits his fairway woods off the driving range carpet all day, but the minute he has to hit it out of a rough lie with his feet in weird places he can't swing for crap.
All a 1 second draw from a perfect competition stance proves is you're really good at shooting from a competition stance.
It'd be better to have a 3 second draw to hit while moving quickly to the left or right than having a 1.5 second draw to hit while standing still.
That is why I am going to a Close Range Gunfighting class in the next few weeks, to improve on what I can now do. I can aready shoot on the run, but adding moving off the X, drawing and punching the paper in less than 2 seconds is something else. That is what I expect to get trained in in addition to more skill sets that I do not yet have.
Gabe Suarez's Close Range Gunfighting?
If so, it's a pretty good class. I took it back around 2003.