A shotgun is the ultimate weapon

Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by etcetera, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. etcetera

    etcetera

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    I am selling my 308 MBR, having realized that a shotgun is infinitely more useful. For hunting, you can have a variety of loads, ranging from slugs to #8.5 for smallest game. I really liked #2 with Flite Control Wad, tight pattern out to 40 meters. The load is called BlackCloud, good stuff for turkey or whatever.

    So if TSHTF, you are set for hunting. I have a much easier time hitting something with #6 or #7.5 versus a 22 LR. Plus the cost of 22LR has escalated so high that #8.5 is not that much more expensive but throws a gazillion pellets if you hunt small game. You can find deals on #4, #6 birdshot. etc.

    For tactical usage, with an extended mag, you have about 9 in the mag plus 1 ghost loaded and 1 in the chamber. That's 99 pellets an experienced shotgun person can empty in a few seconds. Some of these guys on youtube are scary fast, they got their VersaMaxes going at nearly full-auto speeds. No submachine gun or AR15 can match that at CQB distances. Plus there is no muzzle rise, each 9 pellet pattern goes into the same spot. Vastly increasing hit probably on several moving targets. This is what TSHTF might be, several moving (and armed) targets and the distance is measured not in meters but feet. So an AR15 with 500-meter hit capability may not be the best for room-clearing. I hear the most experienced room clearing people take something like Benelli M4.

    A slug can stop a car engine and buckshot can target the tires if a moving vehicle has to be stopped. Much more difficult to stop a vehicle with a 9mm or 223. Maybe even impossible.

    I noticed during the ammo panic last year, the shelves were wiped out except for 12 and 20 gauge, with some 410. There was literally nothing else available. Even a 20 gauge is considerably more powerful than 44 Magnum, with a higher hit probability. So you should be able to always obtain some kind of 12 gauge ammo. It's universally desirable. Even #4 buckshot is a serious defense mechanism. With a 3" magnum shell, you shoot 15 pellets of 0.33 caliber, that's like emptying the entire magazine of a 32 auto with one shot. A 3.5" magnum shell of buckshot holds 18 pellets.

    With 12 gauge, Flite Control Wad doubles the distance to about 40 meters. Cheap buckshot from Walmart really sucks. The patterns all go to hell at even 25 meters. FCW is much tighter. At least 1/2 the size. I could even obtain hits at 100 meters with Federal FCW buckshot but it was of course questionable at that kind of distance. At room distances, FCW is pretty tight, the size of a large dollar coin.

    Glocks are always backups weapons. Bringing a Glock to a shotgun fight is as smart as bringing a knife to a gunfight. I had a acquaintance who fought in an African war in the 70's. He said, as a combat vet, he considered pistols nearly worthless and would prefer having an extra mag of ammo for his FAL rifle. Pistols are just the last resort, oh-shyte backup when all else has failed. If all I had was a Glock and I ran into an adversary with a 12 gauge, my first reaction would be to run as hell.

    An AR15 rules outside of the 50 meter range of course. Another huge disadvantage of shotguns is they are difficult to supply with ammo, it's bulky and heavy. 200 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot weights 25 lbs, even though it has 1800 pellets. Plus the longer the ammo tube, the longer the shotgun. So a 9-round capacity shotgun is kind of huge and bulky compared to an AR15 with a 16" barrel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
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  2. MO Fugga

    MO Fugga Malt Liqra® Lifetime Member

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    I agree....

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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
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  3. etcetera

    etcetera

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    This is what I am talking about.

    I know the "rack the pump" tactic has been criticized by experts as nonsense, you give away your position, plus your shotgun should already have one in the chamber, etc. (and I agree) but if I heard a familiar 12 gauge pump action slide racking sound, my immediately instinct would to get the hell out of there. Unless I had a belt fed 308 or a SAW and even then I would contemplate running vs engaging.
     
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  4. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    After recently taking MDFI's foundation shotgun I'm really liking using a shotgun over an AR for HD. Before that I did use my shotgun for HD, but that was only because my one AR I keep at my work residence. Mossberg 500 with a Magpul stock, Surefire forend, and a XS Big Dot bead. I'm working on patterning with it right now. My last session the Federal Flitecontrol #1 buck was spreading quite a bit at 25. More so than it should. I'm in the process of figuring it out.

    But I digress. The devastation the shotgun brings to the table is impressive. Doing the math today with that Mossberg 500 loaded with #1 buck I have 120 projectiles in the gun. Another 90 in the side saddle. Some people say shotguns don't hold enough ammo, but how many homeowners have had to reload in a HD situation? I'm still waiting to find a story.
     
  5. etcetera

    etcetera

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    Its the choke. Try the least restrictive choke like Cylinder. Don't use a turkey choke (full), FCW likes no choke at all. As choke interferes with the wad.

    #1 FCW is neat but it only comes in reduced recoil version. no full power equivalent of LE127-00.
     
  6. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    I'm trying to figure out if it has one or not. It's currently at my other residence. An expert recommended trying 00 and cleaning it. He also mentioned checking the choke. It's an old 500 that used to have a chair leg grip. Family members. They think it is cylinder, but aren't positive. I have put in an order for the full power stuff. I was disappointed to see how the 500 patterned at first. My SXP at 25 yards made a group about the size of my fist.
     

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  7. etcetera

    etcetera

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    FWIW, I once tried "full" choke and the pattern seriously degraded. I would also find the wads relatively close to the muzzle. I had ok results with "improved cylinder". I then tried "cylinder", which is the least restrictive choke I could find but did not see any real difference between it and IC.

    I also heard that the low recoil stuff like LE132-00 patterns better than the full power LE127-00.
     
  8. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    I've heard online #1 patterns the best. Guy I talked to said sometimes the 00 is better at patterning. I'll find out in the next week or two.
     
  9. etcetera

    etcetera

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    I would buy #1 with Flight Control Wad if they had a non-recoil reduced version. It's a moot point anyway since #1 FCW is Unobtanium.
     
  10. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. I did just get like 250 rounds of it.
     
  11. etcetera

    etcetera

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    the problem is, with #1 FCW, the pellets are smaller and velocity is reduced, so the momentum is a little lower. the upside, there are more pellets and supposedly the pattern is better than with 00 buck.
     
  12. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    I wish I could find some street results from it. Still, I'm betting it's just as if not more powerful than 20 gauge ammo.
     
  13. etcetera

    etcetera

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    My understanding is, they came out with "reduced recoil" for pump actions, which are brutal with some loads. With soft-kicking semiautos like Benelli M4 and Remington Versa Max, there is no reason for "reduced recoil" anything, buckshot or slugs. The semiautos begin to get objectionable with magnum loads, like 3" slugs. Full power buckshot with flite control is a joke, it's very soft shooting.

    I shot both LE127-00 (full power 00 buckshot with FCW), reduced recoil version of the above (LE132-00) and the 8-pellet reduced recoil (LE133-00), I couldn't tell any difference between those loads recoil-wise.

    I shot a pump action with some serious load - don't remember if it was a slug or buckshot but it kicked so hard, I said never again.
     
  14. LASTRESORT20

    LASTRESORT20 L T G

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    Yes...understand and agree with you....:supergrin:

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  15. Snaps

    Snaps Hail 2 The King

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    sorry clicked the home page. Wrong forum
     
  16. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    Lol. At my shotgun class I ran the last drill (slug to 50 yard steel then 2 birdshot to 10 yard steel) using a Federal Truball slug. It was like I had ignited a cannon. Whole class lost it. Instructor standing about 4 feet away from me goes "what in the heck was that!?!?"
     
  17. sns3guppy

    sns3guppy

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    Ah, no, they're not always backup weapons. In fact, for many, they're a primary weapon; especially those equipped with a Glock for their duty weapon.

    You're aware that bringing a knife to a gunfight has another corollary, right? One can make just as big a mistake bringing a gun to a knife fight.

    A shotgun is another tool in the toolbox, nothing more, nothing less.
     
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  18. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    Pretty much agree with you. You have to be able to make your hits. I saw a video from a cigar shop that got robbed. Big dude comes in with a shotgun and stands at about 7 o'clock to an employee the shotgun nearly touching his head. Employee turns, grabs the shotgun and forces the shotgun to point down. While doing this he draws a 380 and starts pumping rounds into the guy. 5 rounds fired no misses. Send the guy and the shotgun to the ground. He then backs up and turns toward the door where a second robber was. By this time the guy had fled. The employee then gets behind the counter and grabs a second pistol. Equipment wise it was a 380 vs shotgun. Dude with the 380 won. The guy also had 0 training. I wish I could post the video. It's seriously impressive.
     
  19. jhooten

    jhooten NRA Life Member

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    What Remington has to say on the subject of chokes:
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    Kept a turkey extra full in my previous social shotgun. Spent a good bit of time on the pattern boards. It would keep all nine or 12 00 shot in the torso out to 60 yards. At 40 it would pass the hostage test.
     
  20. etcetera

    etcetera

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    Interesting point you make.