9mm woods load?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by mc1911, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. unit1069

    unit1069

    Messages:
    9,982
    Likes Received:
    2,245
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Location:
    So. Central US
    A soft point will have less expansion and more penetration than a JHP but less penetration than FMJ. If all I had was 9mm to face off (at most) a black bear then I'd want some expansion even if marginal and more velocity than I'd get from a heavy bullet. A 124-grain in +P hopefully. If someone makes such a thing.
     
  2. pAZ Ron

    pAZ Ron

    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    772
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Master, I believe the key difference quoted is that the wide meplate lead hard cast bullets are more likely to crack and break bones thus breaking down the support structure to disable the animal while still penetrating to vitals. In contrast, FMJ's cause less structure damage and/or deflect more off bones causing less damage along the way.

    This is the key reason that wide nose hard cast bullets, in calibers that can drive them sufficiently, are the most strongly recommended for bear country.

    I carry those when I am in bear country, but have never had to use them ... so no firsthand experience. When not in big bear country (but still in the field or woods), choices open up some. I may carry the hardcast or just one of the deeper penetrating JHP's like the Hornady XTP bullet, even in 9mm, and am OK with those bullets for defense against the likes of cougar, wild canines, rabid animals, and 2 legged predators.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    fredj338, RichardB and CanyonMan like this.

  3. pAZ Ron

    pAZ Ron

    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    772
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Hornady American Gunner has a 9mm 124+P in their deeper penetrating XTP bullet. When not in bear country and if I am carrying a 9 mm, I carry that load in the field/woods.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  4. Master Guns

    Master Guns

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    730
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Best post I’ve seen so far. Thanks. How do you think a +P FMJ FN. 45acp would do? Big and heavy.
     
  5. pAZ Ron

    pAZ Ron

    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    772
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Master, better than any hollow point! But I think still less preferred than hard cast lead for big bears. For example, here is what Doubletap Ammo, a company whose hard cast ammo I've carried and shot, says about their 45 ACP FMJ load and their .40 S&W hard cast, for comparison.
    ----------
    "The 230gr. FMJ-FP is a great woods load that is capable of cleanly taking deer and hogs. Safe from any 45ACP.

    Caliber : .45ACP

    Bullet : 230gr. Nosler FMJ-FP

    Ballistics : 1000fps and 511ft lbs of energy at the muzzle 5" 1911"
    ----------

    "40 S&W 200 gr Hard Cast Solids

    Deep Penetrating and hard-hitting! This load offer both for woods and hunting applications.

    The 200gr WFNGC @ 1050fps from a Glock 23!

    990fps 435 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.

    1100fps 538 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl."

    Caliber : .40 S&W

    Bullet : 200gr. Wide Flat Nose Gas Checked

    Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1050fps / 490 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)
    Glock 22 4.5" bbl - 1106fps
    Glock 27 3.5" bbl - 1009fps
    ---------

    That they are mentioning the .45 FMJ only for deer or hogs but don't limit that for the .40 S&W Hard cast even though velocity and energies are similar tells me something.

    Here is their equivalent hard cast in .45 ACP, and you can see they don't try to restrict it.

    "45 ACP+P 255gr SWC Hardcast Solids
    This is the heaviest and deepest penetrating 45ACP load available anywhere. Safe for all 45ACP pistols rated for +P. Not recommended for Glock and HKUSP pistols because of the polygonal rifling.. A perfect woods and hunting load for your 45!

    Caliber : .45 ACP+P

    Bullet : 255gr. Keith Style SWC Hardcast Lead

    Ballistics : 875fps - 434 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl."


    But you can see due to the higher weight the velocity is lower and the energy trails off. The articles I've seen for grizzly defense recommend 500 ft/lbs. energy as a minimum to start and go up from there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
    Master Guns likes this.
  6. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    Messages:
    24,034
    Likes Received:
    24,025
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Location:
    CA Central Coast
    Man, there's no way I'm going to wade through almost a year's worth of postings on this topic.

    OP, are you still around, and did you find an answer to your original question?

    My thoughts? If I were going to take one of my 9's into the woods, and I had the ability to select a load? I'd ask myself what's an equivalent .38SPL load I'd use in the same circumstances in a revolver, and then look for something similar in 9mmP.

    It's just a 9mm (or .38SPL), not a .357MAG or better.

    I'd not have any qualms about using either .38SPL or 9mm for anything up to and including mountain lion (puma, cougar, whatever name you want to tie on its tail ;) ).

    Now, for small black bear? That's why I own heavy bullet weight .357MAG, as a minimum, and given my druthers would prefer one of my .44MAG's or .45Colt (with Ruger-Only handloads). ;)

    9mm or .38SPL? Factory ammo? Coin toss. Don't imagine either of them to be more than they are, because a feral animal won't share your thoughts, most likely ...
     
    CanyonMan likes this.
  7. Master Guns

    Master Guns

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    730
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Thanks for such a great post. Great information
     
  8. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

    Messages:
    1,515
    Likes Received:
    1,999
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Really? He called you "Master". How about I just called you "Sarge"? You in the Army now? If a troop called me "Master" instead of "Master Guns" (at a minimum) I would have beat him with my hash marks.
     
  9. pAZ Ron

    pAZ Ron

    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    772
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    GEORGE, fairly common (at least I do it!) on GT if someones GT name is two words or more to just use the first part of the name, like I just did for you. Not meant as any reference to any military experience, rank, or title.

    Don't get bent out of shape about it ... Master Guns did not and I was addressing it to him. He just appreciated that I took to time to provide information and try to answer his question.
     
    Master Guns likes this.
  10. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

    Messages:
    1,515
    Likes Received:
    1,999
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Don't worry about it. It was a joke. I was poking fun at things mostly only Marines would understand.
     
    pAZ Ron likes this.
  11. Quigley

    Quigley Elite Member

    Messages:
    6,219
    Likes Received:
    4,359
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Location:
    Virginia
    9mm is a much more powerful round than 38spc just so we’re clear.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. shoeguns

    shoeguns Shooting Star

    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    294
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    I got a buddy who got a 9E as his first handgun and a .380 Bodyguard as his second. While he does want to get a .44 Mag for carrying out west, he isn't in a terrible rush to do so. I recommended that he order what Rec-Room posted when we go Up Nort. Either get that or heavy flat-nose FMJ.
     
  13. Quigley

    Quigley Elite Member

    Messages:
    6,219
    Likes Received:
    4,359
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Location:
    Virginia
    Your buddy sounds like one of those poors that I keep hearing about haha.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    shoeguns likes this.
  14. amd65

    amd65

    Messages:
    2,907
    Likes Received:
    4,114
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Location:
    North Coast of Ohio
    ...Untill you look at loads like Underwood. The 38 special 158gn hard cast Keith semi wadcutter blows away the 9mm 147gn hard cast.
     
  15. Master Guns

    Master Guns

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    730
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    Can you explain “blows away”. 9mm FN hard cast is a real deep penetrating round. You make a very bold statement.
     
  16. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    Messages:
    24,034
    Likes Received:
    24,025
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Location:
    CA Central Coast

    Bullet weight to bullet weight, standard pressure to standard pressure, +P to +P, +P+ to +P+ ... the differences in MV & ME aren't that much different, overall, to significantly matter. When you're talking 100-150 +/-fps, and within 50-60ft-lbs, it's not a tremendous difference.

    The .38SPL has the advantage of heavier bullet weights, too. Or, as my brother likes to observe when he's shooting coyotes, the 158gr LSWCHP +P load typically takes the coyotes he shoots off their feet in quick order, while the lighter bullet weights he's tried typically don't, with the same hits, placement-wise.

    Now, back when I was having to euthanize severely injured deer, in the revolver days, I kept some 158gr LSWCHP +P at hand, to replace the Magnum loads I carried on-duty. Placement was still the key factor, though. I didn't have to use more than 1 shot on those deer, although I've seen a couple other cops not know where to place their shots, and fire several rounds without the desired (humane) effect. Sigh.

    Now, if someone was worried about mountain lions, I'd think either caliber was adequate, but personally, I'd still want to err on the side of caution and use either 147gr or 158gr loads, for the bullet weight (to defeat bony structures to the degree possible). Given my druthers, I'd also prefer the wider (and more sharply shouldered) meplat possible with the .38SPL LSWC.
     
  17. Master Guns

    Master Guns

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    730
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2017
    What???? The 9 mm has way more bullet designs and is way more advanced than the 38 when it comes the bullet designs. The lead semi wadcutter is so like 1980s. It is a good round but nowhere near the quality of rounds of today. In fact the 38+P HST made by federal blows away the lead semi wadcutter. I didn’t even know they made that old LSWC around anymore. The 9 mm 147 or 158 will give you more penetration than a 38 and it’s not even close. You come across as if the 38 is a 357 magnum. The 38 is a little more than 380. With the logic you were speaking the 38 should be making a big comeback since it’s that good compared to the 9 mm. I don’t even know whether to take your post seriously because I think you’re trying to troll because it’s so ridiculous
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    Messages:
    24,034
    Likes Received:
    24,025
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Location:
    CA Central Coast
    I thought we were talking about small-to-medium sized feral animal threats?

    "The lead semi wadcutter is so like 1980s". How has the anatomy, hide and fur of animals that size changed since the 80's? Since the 30's? Western coyotes are mostly medium dog size.

    While normally 'ambush' predators, a cat that can range up to 200lbs, and is physically capable of running jumps exceeding 40 feet and standing vertical leaps of up to 15 feet, would prompt me to reconsider low-powered handgun caliber placement on the "adequate" scale.

    Personally, I'd rather nudge things a little higher up the rungs of the "adequate" scale and carry a .357MAG or .40 S&W if anticipating that sort of feral animal threat, although even .357MAG is still on the lighter end of things for bear. Even the small blk/brn bears we have here in CA.

    Carry what you wish. It's not like you have to be concerned about the safety of anyone other than yourself from potential feral animal threats.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
    fredj338 likes this.
  19. GlockinStihl

    GlockinStihl I'm all Glocked out

    Messages:
    1,177
    Likes Received:
    903
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2019
    Location:
    Virginia
    Cant remember if I replied on this one not. But get the Underwood with the Hardcast bullet.
     
    Master Guns likes this.
  20. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    31,916
    Likes Received:
    10,840
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    If you handload the 38sp, then 158gr lfp,& 1000fos is very doable in a 3-4" revo. So it would be slightky better than any 147gr you could put together in a 9mm, Imo.
    For me, a true woods gun is a 4" 44mag. Handloaded, its mild to wild by just switching out ammo. It will take small game, shot loads for snakes, heavy lfp for big bears & 240gr lhp at midrange for anything else that needs shooting.. Truely a versatile trail/woods gun. The only demi I consider is a 10mm & just not as versatile as a heavy cal revo.
     
    George Kaplan and ironhead7544 like this.