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I don't think anyone here thinks it's energy that kills as though it's some type of force field that incapacitates the target. It's the bullet poking holes in things, but that bullet has energy behind it, otherwise it wouldn't do anything or go anywhere. More energy causes more damage and some of that damage is beyond what the bullet itself hits. How big of a factor is that as far as incapacitation is concerned? Hard to tell but more damage is more effective. To think that somehow doesn't apply to the human body is simply wrong.
You havent been following rails response. He certainly believes in energy alone as the wounding mechanism. No more energy doesn't always cause more damage, always about the bullet.
 

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Everyone that know anything about shooting for SD knows penetration over expansion.
Every single time.

No actually it's expansion that works every time for the greatest damage every time a hit is made. Deep penetration is a hit or miss deal that works "if" deep penetration is needed and "if a vital spot is hit". There is no guarantee that a good hit can be made in a fight so you want the most out of every hit you get. Modern proven ammo that offers good expansion and good penetration like the HST is best. Federal...... designed it to get around 13 to 14 inches of penetration, what does that tell you.

I think I have explained this about a half dozen times before but some apparently aren't getting it.
 

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Hitting something "vital" often requires very little penetration or no COM hits at all. Example if the gun hand, arm or shoulder is hit that is a pretty vital body part in a gun fight. If a femoral artery or leg nerve bundle is hit your not going to be in the fight for long. Any hit to the face or neck is going to get one's attention, a broken leg bone or good hip hit could be very limiting.

The purpose of SD is to escape injury by any means necessary. Killing can be time consuming which isn't a good thing in a gun fight, however an injury can be instant. Bottom line any hit in a gun fight can be potentially fight stopping no need to get hung up on the one deep penetration scenario which could be the least desirable.
 

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Hitting something "vital" often requires very little penetration or no COM hits at all. Example if the gun hand, arm or shoulder is hit that is a pretty vital body part in a gun fight. If a femoral artery or leg nerve bundle is hit your not going to be in the fight for long. Any hit to the face or neck is going to get one's attention, a broken leg bone or good hip hit could be very limiting.

The purpose of SD is to escape injury by any means necessary. Killing can be time consuming which isn't a good thing in a gun fight, however an injury can be instant. Bottom line any hit in a gun fight can be potentially fight stopping no need to get hung up on the one deep penetration scenario which could be the least desirable.
You have to be saying all of these ridiculous things on purpose to start controversy. What you say goes against everything that's been taught in the last 30+ years.
 

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Hitting something "vital" often requires very little penetration or no COM hits at all. Example if the gun hand, arm or shoulder is hit that is a pretty vital body part in a gun fight. If a femoral artery or leg nerve bundle is hit your not going to be in the fight for long. Any hit to the face or neck is going to get one's attention, a broken leg bone or good hip hit could be very limiting.

The purpose of SD is to escape injury by any means necessary. Killing can be time consuming which isn't a good thing in a gun fight, however an injury can be instant. Bottom line any hit in a gun fight can be potentially fight stopping no need to get hung up on the one deep penetration scenario which could be the least desirable.
Potential? Then a 22lr will do? Few of those are immediate fight stoppers. Again your lack of field exp is stunning. Why accuracy at speed escapes you, you cant shoot. So you think landing anything, anywhere on your target wins your fight? Its been shown 1000s of times to just not be true.
 

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You have to be saying all of these ridiculous things on purpose to start controversy. What you say goes against everything that's been taught in the last 30+ years.
30, more like since aimed gun fire has been in use?
 

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Potential? Then a 22lr will do? Few of those are immediate fight stoppers. Again your lack of field exp is stunning. Why accuracy at speed escapes you, you cant shoot. So you think landing anything, anywhere on your target wins your fight? Its been shown 1000s of times to just not be true.

Hard to answer an illogical post where you state things I didn't say, reach conclusion I did not post and then do your classic straw man argument with your own post. My post was stated very clearly and has nothing in common with what you are blathering about.
 

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Hard to answer an illogical post where you state things I didn't say, reach conclusion I did not post and then do your classic straw man argument with your own post. My post was stated very clearly and has nothing in common with what you are blathering about.
If I have to explain it, you are past understanding it. NOTHING in that juvenile post was clear. Maybe you need two gloves?
 
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No actually it's expansion that works every time for the greatest damage every time a hit is made. Deep penetration is a hit or miss deal that works "if" deep penetration is needed and "if a vital spot is hit". There is no guarantee that a good hit can be made in a fight so you want the most out of every hit you get. Modern proven ammo that offers good expansion and good penetration like the HST is best. Federal...... designed it to get around 13 to 14 inches of penetration, what does that tell you.

I think I have explained this about a half dozen times before but some apparently aren't getting it.
I agree with George.
There is no way you actually believe this.
Penetration is the most important factor, only after actually firing.
It’s why so many .380 shooters still carry FMJ’s.


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No actually it's expansion that works every time for the greatest damage every time a hit is made. Deep penetration is a hit or miss deal that works "if" deep penetration is needed and "if a vital spot is hit". There is no guarantee that a good hit can be made in a fight so you want the most out of every hit you get. Modern proven ammo that offers good expansion and good penetration like the HST is best. Federal...... designed it to get around 13 to 14 inches of penetration, what does that tell you.

I think I have explained this about a half dozen times before but some apparently aren't getting it.
You can tell me the world is flat a full dozen times.
It doesn’t mean I’m going to believe you…


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Potential? Then a 22lr will do? Few of those are immediate fight stoppers. Again your lack of field exp is stunning. Why accuracy at speed escapes you, you cant shoot. So you think landing anything, anywhere on your target wins your fight? Its been shown 1000s of times to just not be true.
You don't think a hit to a bone in : the gun hand, shoulder, shin, knee cap, hip, jaw, etc, will end a gun fight? Or at the very least, take away someone's will to even try to continue?
Israel uses the Remington 1022, with hits to the Palestinian terrorist legs, very effectively, without killing them..But, boy, they give up the will to stick around and then ATTEMPT to high tail it out of the area on one leg...
Back when I was at the PD, we had numerous shootings that did not hit vital organs, but ended the fight rather quickly.
But then again, we carried the p226 in 357 sig.

9<45<40<357sig
 

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You should ask the agents in the Miami shootout if penetration is important.
No, wait…
According to your (and Rail’s) logic SD ammo companies should fully concentrate on expansion and not even worry about penetration.
But they won’t listen.
Because they know better.


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You totally missed the point. I responded to a post that stated no vital organs could be reached without deep penetration. Unless you don’t understand X-ray and CT imaging , that is not true at all as demonstrated.

This has nothing to do with FBI recommendations with which I agree. These came about because the Miami experience demonstrated that one can encounter shots delivered at an angle, through bones, etc. Reading is FUNdamental.
 

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You totally missed the point. I responded to a post that stated no vital organs could be reached without deep penetration. Unless you don’t understand X-ray and CT imaging , that is not true at all as demonstrated.

This has nothing to do with FBI recommendations with which I agree. These came about because the Miami experience demonstrated that one can encounter shots delivered at an angle, through bones, etc. Reading is FUNdamental.
I didn’t say none could be reached.
I was just saying hedging your bets that you can end a gunfight relying on shallow penetrating rounds wasn’t very smart.
Yes, reading is fundamental.
But comprehension is golden…


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What vitals can be hit with shallow penetration?
I didn’t say none could be reached.
I was just saying hedging your bets that you can end a gunfight relying on shallow penetrating rounds wasn’t very smart.
Yes, reading is fundamental.
But comprehension is golden…


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But you questioned which could. Consider yourself schooled.
 

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But you questioned which could. Consider yourself schooled.
That’s according to your interpretation of shallow.
Heart and lungs aren’t shallow if the bullet must first travel through arms up in a defensive position.
I’ll hedge my bets on penetration, like every other knowledgeable shooter.
You’ve sided with the guy that one day argues energy in service calibers alone can win a fight.
Then the next day he says the expansion is the most important aspect to winning a gunfight.
His goal is only to argue against the 9mm.
So.
Consider yourself laughed at.


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I showed you shallow and now you’re just backpedaling. As far as the rest I already explained.
Naw. It’s cool. We’ll just disagree and move on.
I get it, you’re one of those guys that thinks the BG will just stand there like a B-27 while you draw, aim, and shoot.
You train for best case scenario and I’ll keep training for worst case.
Peace.


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