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When i got to where i could do a bill drill in 3sec with my 1911, i wanted to get to 2. I know i just physically can not with a 45. I have gotten close with a g19. I know, to the unknowledgeable split times dont matter, but think of it as being able to punch 5/65cal holes in the time someone else can punch 3-4/75cal holes. Would it matter, maybe, depends on what that hole goes thru. Bullets landing faster means the good poa/poi changes less.
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Fred, I've always wondered what you are referencing ... are your split times and time spent practicing splits with full power loads? the equivalent of a good full power 124 + P defensive load?

Or if you are quoting competition loads, have you measured split time differences between target and SD loads?

(I ask the question that way because if you come back with "major" or "minor" terminology, I don't know the comparison of that to SD loads.)
 

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For energy guys, 9mm+p actually makes more energy with less recoil than most 45+p

The .45 gets greater expansion "with every shot" greater penetration only works a small percentage of the time if you get lucky and actually hit something deep or even need to hit something deep. But also remember the .40 is the new .45.
 

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Fred, I've always wondered what you are referencing ... are your split times and time spent practicing splits with full power loads? the equivalent of a good full power 124 + P defensive load?

Or if you are quoting competition loads, have you measured split time differences between target and SD loads?

(I ask the question that way because if you come back with "major" or "minor" terminology, I don't know the comparison of that to SD loads.)
Yes running full power ammo in comparative drills. The only people that dont understand split times are really those that have never actually run the drills with the timer. There are those that say tImes dont matter, yet every single LEA qual requires a time element. Why, because rapid good hits are better than slow good hits. To be clear, I dont practice split times, that really isnt a drill. Split times are just a way to evaluate ones control of their weapon/ammo at full speed. So if one wants to be able to deliver a sub 2sec Moz drill, it requires a smooth clean presentation & yes, fast split times. The only people that dont care are the ones that cant actually do it, imo.
 
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The .45 gets greater expansion "with every shot" greater penetration only works a small percentage of the time if you get lucky and actually hit something deep or even need to hit something deep. But also remember the .40 is the new .45.
WTF did you just try & say? No, 45 does not always get greater expansion with every shot. AGAIN, for the slow kids, its about the bullet. Penetration is not about luck but about bullet performance. Gees, you are just not paying attention. Yes, if you want to get a stop every time. you need to hit vitals or structure. then you would know that if you actually had som field experience instead of bubba boobtube porn.
 

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Caliber wars, what would gun forums be without them? LOL!

There was a Soviet soldier who survived the Battle of Stalingrad who received multiple 8mm rifle (probable MG) rnds, somewhere between 15 - 20 IIRC. He did undergo surgery but amazingly there was no serious damage to his vital organs. I believe he eventually returned to a combat unit after his recovery.

That’s all I really need to know about how a pistol caliber works.
 

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Caliber wars, what would gun forums be without them? LOL!

There was a Soviet soldier who survived the Battle of Stalingrad who received multiple 8mm rifle (probable MG) rnds, somewhere between 15 - 20 IIRC. He did undergo surgery but amazingly there was no serious damage to his vital organs. I believe he eventually returned to a combat unit after his recovery.

That’s all I really need to know about how a pistol caliber works.
Humans have survived all manner of combat wounds & survived. Many others continued to fight with the wound & died later. Its why all the BS about stopping power & knockdown is just that, BS.
This Marine survived a shot from a .50-cal at point-blank range - We Are The Mighty
 
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Same as your point. Placement and circumstances are relevant.

But she was hardly a dork.
Well we all like big fish stories. So if you read it carefully, the bear could have been shot 8-9x in the head before it died?? That would pretty much discredit the 1 shot with a 22lr story. Again, hunting isnt stopping. Just about everything that walks on earth can be killed with a sharp stick, doesnt mean we should all be carrying sharp sticks.
 

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.45ACP creates a larger permanent cavity than 9mm. I'm in and I'm out. Just like that. wavey
 
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Meh.
With quality SD ammo…
They all end up ~.60-.65” and go ~14-16” deep.
I don’t care how big they are before they’re fired.


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Don't knock yourself out trying to have a rational discussion with irrational 9 fanboys. Everyone knows what you were saying but the fans always have to complicate and dodge any unflattering comparisons with their 9. Almost all caliber wars are the 9mm vs ..........!
Yeah. That’s true.
I wonder why that is?
Maybe because the only benefits that are quantifiable is with the 9mm.
The so called benefits of the other service calibers are usually just feelings, ie, it’s bigger, it’s got to be better. Or, it’s faster, it’s got to be better.
It just isn’t true though.
There’s no significant difference between the service calibers.
If there was, we’d all know it by now and we’d all be carrying it.
The debate is actually the truth…


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.45ACP creates a larger permanent cavity than 9mm. I'm in and I'm out. Just like that. wavey
Can, not always does, back to the bullet.
 

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WTF did you just try & say? No, 45 does not always get greater expansion with every shot. AGAIN, for the slow kids, its about the bullet. Penetration is not about luck but about bullet performance. Gees, you are just not paying attention. Yes, if you want to get a stop every time. you need to hit vitals or structure. then you would know that if you actually had som field experience instead of bubba boobtube porn.

Again, deep penetration actually being useful is a hit or miss proposition depending on whether or not the last inch or two of penetration actually hits something vital or not. Most of the time nothing vital is hit or a vital organ is already hit with less penetration. On the other hand a larger round with more expansion will do more damage with every shot, make a larger hole, than a smaller caliber round "of the same design".

WTF first you don't believe more velocity and energy tops the 9mm and now you don't believe that size tops the 9mm by using the old trick of pick and chose different bullet types to compare which of course invalidates the comparison.

Your 9mm fanboy zeal is reaching an advanced stage of progression bordering on loosing touch with ballistic's reality completely.

Reality check time 0.892 inches expansion.


 

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So if you read it carefully, the bear could have been shot 8-9x in the head before it died?? That would pretty much discredit the 1 shot with a 22lr story. Again, hunting isnt stopping. Just about everything that walks on earth can be killed with a sharp stick, doesnt mean we should all be carrying sharp sticks.
Yes, it does discredit purposeful choice of a .22. And it was .22 long, not LR. Ie., 29 gr bullet most likely.

But my take on her is different than yours. She wasn't bear hunting. She didn't ask for the encounter, was working a trapline with her male partner. Made a conscious decision that probably saved their lives.

Unless you think a native American squaw wouldn't know when she must shoot vs stay hidden. I'm not dumb enough to underestimate her. After stunning the bear with a perfect shot placement, she was smart enough to follow up till certain of outcome. I call that "cool under pressure". In this world, anyway. She sure as heck was no dork.

I agree completely with your take on the thread topic, tho.
 
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