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9mm 115 +P+...

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Brent10mm, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. Brent10mm

    Brent10mm

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    But, with GOLDDOTS!
    or a similar load to the buffalo bore 115 +P+, or Doubletap...
    Of the two, BB is now using montana gold bullets in their 115 load, and DT seems to be having a lot of QQ issues, or at least I've been reading a few here on the forums.....

    So, anybody tried doing something like this?
    Speer man. states only 1250fps out of a 4" with either 8.5gr blue dot, or 6.3gr. unique. funny thing is, the 124gr pills go the same speed, in their data.

    http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Relodata/Handgun/9mmLuger.jpg

    I have tried the 90 gr VV 3n37 max load (1500fps)with a gold dot and it is frag nasty.
    the same powder only reaches 1300fps with a 115 gr however.

    I think that a 115 gold dot at or close to 1400 would be and end all SD 9mm load. Yeah I have 147 HST's, and they are impressive... but Im leaning towards energy, and hydrostatic shock(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock) that a 115 +P+ would create, and if it were bonded, it penetrate to a perfect depth. It would be real close to a 357 sig 125gr @ 1450....:dunno:
     
  2. Jayman

    Jayman Big Dummy

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    Drive a bullet faster than its design envelope and you get less penetration and typically the bullet either over expands or fragments, which doesn't give you what you want in a handgun bullet. Even at 1400+, you won't get hydrostatic shock type effects. Most defensive ammo has gone away from the lighter bullets going faster and headed toward heavier bullets, thus the 124gr and 147gr defensive loadings from Gold Dot, Winchester, and Federal.

    FWIW, 125gr Gold Dots in .357sig come out of a full size Glock at around 1315-1325, based on my last chrono work. Your 1400 is optimistic for most factory defensive loadings in that caliber.
     

  3. Brent10mm

    Brent10mm

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    faster can run into problems.... with conventional bullet designs, i.e. lead core copper jacket.

    Gold dots are a different animal entirely. bonded designs gives them a better/larger window in increase velocity circumstances.

    take for example the 180 gr .40cal bullet, it was not originally to be screaming out of a 10mm @ 1350 fps double-tap velocities. book maxes are more like 1150-1250. but that extra 100-150 fps makes it one of DT's top performers in gel...

    take a good look again at the wiki link, hydrostatic shock aside... you have to consider the (BPW) Ballistic Pressure Wave.


    "Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup> Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history."

    "In such meticulously selected cases brain tissue was examined histologically; samples were taken from brain hemispheres, basal ganglia, the pons, the oblongate and from the cerebellum. Cufflike pattern haemorrhages around small brain vessels were found in all specimens. These haemorrhages are caused by sudden changes of the intravascular blood pressure as a result of a compression of intrathoracic great vessels by a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet. &#8211; <cite>J. Krajsa<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference"></sup></cite>"

    now look here....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19

    pay attention to this, and the diagram below....

    "The table below shows common performance parameters for several 9x19mm loads. Bullet weights from 115 to 147 grains are common. Loads are available with energies from just over 320 (ft&#8226;lbf) to over 472 (ft&#8226;lbf), and penetration depths from 8 inches to over 24 inches are available for various applications and risk assessments. The Marshall and Sanow "one-shot stop" rating varies from 63% for the non-expanding FMJ which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 266 psi to over 90% for the Cor-Bon 115 grain JHP which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 626 psi. The average incapacitation times (estimated for a 170 lb male shot in the center of the chest) vary from 7.3 to 13.5 seconds."

    the lighter and faster, the greater BPW....

    now all this b.s. data aside, it comes down to the old:deadhorse:
    light (.357 mag.) vs. heavy (.45 acp) theory.

    I like both schools, but I lean to the .357 mag.(light side) and I think it does edge out only slightly the 45 in real world scenarios.

    IMO, shutting down and overloading central nerve systems, would be theoretically faster at stopping a threat, than bleeding out the oxygen supply via blood loss...

    this only is further proven in the growing popularity of the .357 Sig...:dunno:
    and, a 9mm 115gr @ 1400 fps, would be damn close to a sig.

    yes? no?
    what do you think....

    long post need another beer now...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  4. Zombie Steve

    Zombie Steve Decap Pin Killa

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    I guess I'm just one of those guys that instead of really pushing a 9mm, I'll just load .357 mag in the mid-range. Instead of pushing that, I'll just load some low end .44 mag.

    :dunno:


    To each his own. Let us know how it turns out for you.
     
  5. Brent10mm

    Brent10mm

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    I see your point and i could do the same with my 357, or 44 as well.

    The Federal 115 +P+ BPLE, (@1300fps)is THE #1 proven performer in the caliber.
    and if Buffalo Bore, and Double Tap have gotten to 1400fps, then the reloading data is somewhere.... Mind you, these would be SD loads, not range/target... so tested, and hopefully never used again.

    and the reload 4 carry debate doesnt bother me much, especially if the same load is on the market... I really dont care to pay over $1 a 9mm round, I'll just leave that to my .338 lapua.
    especially with the ammo shortage of late...
     
  6. Jayman

    Jayman Big Dummy

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    Please cite your source for this information.
     
  7. Brent10mm

    Brent10mm

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    Marshall & Sanow One Shot Stop Statistics,
    take the finding with a grain of salt, I guess.... but it is supposed to be real, not gel. shootings.

    its right there with the winchester silvertip 115gr, yes the load that is infamous in the fbi shootout that lead to the development of the 10mm, and subsequently the 40 s&w....

    the study inherently has its flaws...sure.
    -placement,
    -targets mass.. is he 150lb. or 300?
    - drugs...?
    ect.

    anyway, it puts emphasis on " shoot the biggest caliber you can handle", that a 9mm in the heart beats a 10mm/45 in the gut.

    hell, maybe I should just get/ccw a G29, and negate the couple ounces and rounds it gives up to the G19.....

    Ironically, 10mm falls somewhere in the middle in their studies....
    hmmm, placement? shoot what you can handle...?:dunno:

    I could b.s., I.W.B. for hours, but for now I'll keep 147 hst's in the G19.
     
  8. Jayman

    Jayman Big Dummy

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    With respect sir, that study has been considered dated/defunct and suspect. Check out the much more recent work of Dr. Gary Roberts. Gelatin has its limitations, but the current battery of tests involves not just bare gelatin but also intermediate barriers plus gelatin, such as denim, sheet metal, plywood, etc. A bullet that does well across all of those variables tends to do pretty darn well vs. two legged critters.

    Yes, shot placement, bla bla bla. Pick the best bullet you can shoot quickly and accurately, and then practice. :)