5 rounds, one more time...

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by yep380, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Partially, The 38 special snubby is marginal at best.
     
  2. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    It works fine if you chose good ammo....like most service calibers.
     

  3. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    The 38 special has taken down plenty of badguys in the last 120 years. This isn't about any measurable problem with the 38 special cartridge. This is about shot placement, an unusually determined attacker and overall capacity. I would not bat an eye about carrying a snubbie 38 as an EDC gun. It would be rather difficult to take sparse examples like this one and make any sort of realistic judgement regards the practicality of utilizing the 38 as your weapon of choice. Historically speaking, it has done the job reasonably well for over 100 years.

    All that said, I am not a proponent of smallish compact weapon of rather limited capacity being used as a primary SD weapon in the home. I accept that cost may be a limiting factor as well as some sort of physical impairment.

    Size, weight and concealability is not an issue with a house gun. It would tend to reason that a person take advantage of those circumstance and bolster their overall capabilities. I think a 38 snub is just fine to carry concealed on your person. Most carry guns are a compromise between capacity, power, convenience and concealability. No such compromise is likely to exists with a house gun. Speaking just for myself, I am going to show up with a 19 round 9mm XD-m.

    Will 5 rounds be enough? Historically speaking, statistically speaking, realistically speaking... yes ( probably).

    Is probably good enough? I would say yes, for a carry gun which is a balance of many compromises. I would say NO for a home gun which should be limited only by your absolute physical abilities and thickness of your wallet.
     
  4. yep380

    yep380

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    Plenty of people have been stopped DRT from a 38sp fired from a snub; it’s better than a pointy stick.

    Not gonna argue that 357 is better, it is.

    One of the hits he scored in his first 5 rounds was a heart shot. Would it have been more devastating if fired from a 357 or his 45? Maybe, maybe not.

    I’d say responding with any gun to the initial altercation, before being beaten, would have made more difference in the outcome.
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Depends whether it caused loss of consciousness more quickly, and if it was faster, whether it was "fast enough" to mean anything when it came to loss of consciousness and incapacitation. Maybe, maybe not.

    I had a surgeon once tell me that a GSW that destroyed the "left" side of the heart (which is actually turned somewhat more to the rear, looking at it from the front) would probably cause faster loss of blood supply to the body and unconsciousness (brain) because it was the "high pressure" side of the heart that pumped it out.

    Now, behind some of the heart - again, looking at human anatomy from the "front" - is the spine and spinal cord. Looking at human anatomy from different angles changes things from a visual perspective.

    People have had their hearts seriously damaged (even by a Magnum service caliber), or completely destroyed (by a shotgun slug), and have either continued to act (fight), or run off some distance before collapsing due to sufficient exsanguination to cause unconsciousness.

    Would 2 GSW "hits" in the "heart"or aortic arch area cause more damage, and if so, would that greater damage cause "faster" incapacitation? Dunno. Probably depends.

    Would a spine/CNS (or cranial) injury cause incapacitation? Do some bullets glance off the strong cranial bones? Do even some bullets which may penetrate from the front of the skull get stopped/trapped in sinus areas? (I'm thinking of some different documented OIS cases where these different questions were answered for those particular incidents.)
     
  6. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Actually no, the 38 snubby is barely marginal. If it was so good most cops not restricted to 38 would not have carried 357 magnums in revolver days, me included.

    The 357, with the appropriate bullet would have been magnitudes more devastating.
     
  7. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    simply because a better round existed or that notable desire existed for a more powerful cartridge, doesn't mean the round is "marginal at best". It would not have been used by the majority of our nations police forces for more than 60 years if it was not getting the job done. I would say that it is clearly adequate not marginal. Certainly there are "better" rounds out there but to call the 38special.."marginal at best" is not reasonable in my estimation.
     
  8. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Maybe. Officer Lim was not devastated by a shot to her chest from a 357mag. Yet again we are back to the bullet design being a primary factor, more so than more energy of higher vel.
    I just see no point in a snub as a house gun. Even a 4" bbl 38/357 is easier tomshoot wel, & offers more vel for better bullet performance. Assuming one is using a good HP bullet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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  9. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    It’s hard to say five shots isn’t enough when four shots stopped and killed the bad guy. It’s more about “only hits count” and staying ahead of the curve.

    I think this would have ended completely differently, had he initially brought a firearm. I don’t understand how a child being in the house stops a thinking man from bringing a firearm to check out his wife screaming. A firearm can safely be carried, by your side, and put away or deployed immediately, when the situation is clear.

    The biggest takeaway here, in my opinion, is to stay in the fight and do what you have to. Their mindset is what got them through this as much or more than having a certain firearm.

    In the end, I am glad they survived and hope they can move beyond the trauma they will likely always suffer.
     
  10. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    Or if you aren’t home.
     
  11. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    True. But she has access to weapons and knows how to use them.

    Somebody else suggested having your wife be an “additional defender”. I was trying to make the point that will only happen in an unavoidable situation.

    If necessary, *I* will defend our home. The only way they will get to my wife is if they get around me somehow or over my dead body. She is not an additional defender. She is a defender of last resort.

    I couldn’t live with myself if something happened to her and I came through without a scratch.
     
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  12. Lil

    Lil

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    ...sorry, man, there was never a first time. Five may be just enough to really tick them off, both of 'em. Why get handsy when more rounds would likely pause the show? Much can happen in the span of three or four seconds. To each his own.
     
  13. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Officer Lim certainly was devastated by the shot. She was able to fight it long enough to win the fight and survive.
     
  14. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    It was used out of political expedience and cost factors by many. "Used for 60 years" well to be factual, it was used in 5" and 6" revolvers for most of that time. The fact that when compared to the 357 magnum it had a dismal record on stopping fights. The typical change for departments that upgraded to the 357 magnum was that instead of having to shoot BG's 5-6 times with 38's they only had to get 1-2 hits with 357 mags. That coincides with what I saw on the street as well. How many people have you seen shot with 38's and 357's? I have seen lots.
     
  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Maybe we have a diff opinion on devestated. :cheers:
     
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  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    The biggest thing wrong with the 38sp was the LRN bullet. Just switching to the lswc helped a lot. Going to a lswchp & goosing it in +p gave bullet expansion, better tissue crush, made it a better fighting tool.
     
  17. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Maybe you meant "one shot stop" Which has always been a metric of measurement , not a tactic. She had a hole in her heart and fought thru it. She was lucky it was a Winchester bullet, not a Remington, the Remington would have fragmented.
     
  18. Bullwinkle J Moose

    Bullwinkle J Moose Quick! Duck!

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    opinions vary. Try sticking a full size auto in the elastic band of your undershorts, pajamas or gym shorts while you lounge around home and see how long it stays there. My snubby J frame will stay there and be instantly available wherever I am in the house. Do I depend on it only for HD? No, although it is often my first line of HD. Five 38spl rounds at the ready on my person will certainly beat 15+ rounds somewhere else in the house and these 5 rounds will likely enable me to get to a larger weapon if they don't stop an intruder outright.
     
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  19. KiloBravo

    KiloBravo NRA Life Member

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    I have carried every type of firearm at some point during the past 11 years. I carried some more often than others. I am currently on a 1911 kick again and have been carrying a compact Kimber Ultra Carry 2 in 45 acp as of late. It packs 8 rounds. I back it up with two additional 8 round mags on my belt. I also stay strapped with my edc gun at home. It comes off at the end of the night and I have a G34 with a 33 round stick in a small lockbox for home defense. I think everybody should carry what they are comfortable with. More importantly, being able to hit your target and being confident and competently trained goes farther than carrying a gun that holds a bunch of rounds. Get trained, maintain good situational awareness, and carry at least one reload. The only time I carry a BUG these days is when I'm in uniform.
     
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  20. Slackinoff

    Slackinoff Bathed in lavender and gasoline

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    I love my snub, it goes everywhere with me. That's the important part, everywhere. I never could carry a semi everywhere like I can with my snub.