5.56 reloading question

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by kburg, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. kburg

    kburg

    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Can you use a 223 die to reload a 5.56 cartridge or does it have a dedicated die . I do not reload at all, just asking for a friend.
     
  2. zodiacbw

    zodiacbw

    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Location:
    Buford, GA
    They're both the same outside case dimensions, so the same die would be used.
     

  3. superhornet

    superhornet

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Location:
    florida
    223 die--loads them both...
     
  4. kburg

    kburg

    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Thank you guys!!!!!
     
  5. freakshow10mm

    freakshow10mm 10mm Advocate

    Messages:
    6,904
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Location:
    Fox Cities, WI
    Same cartridge, different chamber spec.
     
  6. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    freakshow10mm
    Not really!:whistling: Normal case oal for .223 is 1.740-50" Normal case oal for 5.56mm is 1.760". After resizing almost all 5.56mm are 1.760-1.770" I trim all my 5.56mm cases to 1.760". If your trimming your mil brass to the .233 trim lenght your just making them .223's!
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  7. freakshow10mm

    freakshow10mm 10mm Advocate

    Messages:
    6,904
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Location:
    Fox Cities, WI
    Case length has nothing to do with the difference between .223 and 5.56. I've got a lot of Remington brass that is 1.760". Does that make it 5.56 brass now?
     
  8. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    freakshow10mm
    You did look at the FACTORY loaded rounds in the pic? Looks to be a very noticeable difference and yes they are both 55gr FMJ loads! This is also why SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56mm in .223 chambered guns! Shorter lead, longer brass, higher pressured round not a good thing!

    And to answer the OP's question your actually loading .223 even if your using 5.56mm brass cause there is no actually loads for 5.56mm published any where. It's a military load- not published for us civies! They don't use the same powders we are able to get!
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  9. Collo Rosso

    Collo Rosso

    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    3,222
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Location:
    Upstate S.C.
    Sure about that? I've read WC844 military ball powder and Hodgdon H335 are one in the same and the powder for tracers is another commercial powder (forget which). Bad info?
     
  10. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    motorcyclist
    So WC844 is available on every shelf? The formulation maybe very similar to H335 but it is not the same powder! So do you have a copy of the military load manual for 5.56mm? Do you know the exact powder weight used? Yes one could find out- gett some M855 or what ever break it down an weight the charge of 10 rounds and come up with a charge weight. And load from there. But the question is does H335 burn exactly like WC844- same pressure curve? I load my 5.56mm cases as close to the data I've gotten from firing them over a chrony. IE I get very close to the same velocity or actually better with other powders in the exact configuration as factory made 5.56mm -thats 5.56mm cases trimmed to 1.760" and pulled 55gr mil bullets. I could not acheive these velocities with .223 spec'd (1.740-50")cases without pressure signs.

    You also relise that when you buy surplus powders they are a mixture of many different lots of the same powder?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  11. freakshow10mm

    freakshow10mm 10mm Advocate

    Messages:
    6,904
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Location:
    Fox Cities, WI
    So, brass length has nothing to do with it. The difference between the two is in the chamber spec. Look at the drawings side by side. Also, with specs there is a tolerance. Look at the chamber casts and dimensions from the M16 chamber and the M249 SAW chamber. Wonder why SAW fired brass tends to have case head separation issue earlier than M16 fired brass? Because the SAW chamber is on the generous end of the spec's tolerance and it stretches more than in the smaller tolerance the M16 chamber has. Both NATO spec chambers, but one is closer to the smaller end than the other. NATO and SAAMI testing methods and measurements are not the same and cannot be compared.

    Yes it is published. It's in the public domain. Obtain a copy of the Army Ammunition Data Sheet, Small Caliber Ammunition FSC 1305 dated April 1994 just like I did. Chapter 10 page 3 you'll find the specs for M193 ammunition including powder type and exact charge listed.

    Here is the spec for M193: WC844 28.5gr
    [​IMG]


    Here is the spec for M855: WC844 26.1gr
    [​IMG]

    It's common knowledge to handloaders that Hodgdon H335 is WC844 without the flash suppressant. Furthermore you can buy surplus lots of WC844, separated by lot number, the exact same powder the military ammunition is loaded with in the Lake City Arsenal.
     
  12. Clusterfrack

    Clusterfrack

    Messages:
    2,623
    Likes Received:
    31
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    To the OP's friend: don't get your reloading advice 3rd hand off the internet from your buddy who doesn't reload. Or if you do, make sure you take video so we can enjoy the results :popcorn:
     
  13. Collo Rosso

    Collo Rosso

    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    3,222
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Location:
    Upstate S.C.
    Thanks for the info freakshow10mm. I've been reloading for about a year and 223 only about 1K rounds so far. I've been using H335 as it's cheap and available locally. Widner's in Tn. will have WC844 every now and then. I haven't bought any as they reccomend testing each jug and I don't own a chronograph.
     
  14. superhornet

    superhornet

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Location:
    florida
    And, regardless of all the inputs, confab and debate----the original answer to the question remains the same. The Nato brass as well as the commercial are both sized in a .223 die. I will swear to it in court...
     
  15. Boxerglocker

    Boxerglocker Jacks #1 Fan

    Messages:
    6,210
    Likes Received:
    58
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2003
    Location:
    Lynnwood, WA
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  16. steve4102

    steve4102

    Messages:
    12,497
    Likes Received:
    15,554
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Everything you have said is complete nonsense and your comment above about 5.56 data proves it. You really do not know what you are talking about.

    There is published tested data for the 5.56 round. It is published under 223 data and tested to 62K psi. with this heading.
    Appliocation: Bolt Action Rifles and Semi Auto Weapons rated for the latest NATO/MIL ammunition.


    It can be found here.
    http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf

    And Here.
    http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

    Here are the reamer dimensions for both 223 and 5.56. Note dimension (K) base to case mouth (max case length) is the same for both the 5.56 and the 223, 1.77 inches.

    http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

    Case length has NOTHING to do with pressure, nothing. Unless you let your cases get so long the case mouth enters the throat area, that would be 1.77 or more.
     
  17. kburg

    kburg

    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Sorry I asked...LOL
     
  18. shotgunred

    shotgunred local trouble maker

    Messages:
    9,125
    Likes Received:
    1,413
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Location:
    Washington (the state)
    Argument aside yes you use a 223 die.
     
  19. PCJim

    PCJim Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,950
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Location:
    FL
    I own the same manual in blue paperback (not sure if there is a hardbound version available). Mine was assembled backwards from the press. Maybe that's why I own a copy? Regardless, what Freak has posted is correct.
     
  20. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

    Messages:
    12,129
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Well hell I feel cheated then since I pulled down some Lot 00 XM193 and the avgerage charge wt was 27.2 gr thats short 1.3 gr!! So I guess LC isn't following there spec sheets! Also weird that amount of H335(WC844) would be top Bolt action only loading according to my data in manuals an over charge in an AR!:whistling:
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013