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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In anticipation for this weekend me and Justin just loaded up some 45's. We used the free 185gr bullets he get with his LNL and loaded them on my new Turret press.

We used 7.7gr of Unique, CCI SPP and CCI LPP, and Winchester brass.

I will chrono the rounds this Sat morning and post the results.





 

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EX-Swage Monkey
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What a beautiful machine. That picture on the Dillon box looks sweet!! To bad I have to work this weekend. I want to be there to prove SP suck. But the LnL needs a case and bullet feeder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I just got back from the range.
Some pictures:






And the results:

Small Pistol Primer
Average Velocity = 969fps

Large Pistol Primer
Average Velocity = 1027fps

Difference of 58fps


The standard deviations were nothing to brag about. Low 20's in the large pistol primer and low 30's in the small pistol primers. We trickled the powder and the bullets were very consistent. So I blame the SD's on the brass or my press:dunno:. But I think the results are still useful.
 

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Really Chris, low 20s is pretty good for Unique. Your results are pretty much same as mine for the LP & Unique. At 8gr, 185grXTP @ 1.220", I get 1055fps/23fps SD in my 5" 1911. Go to a 185grRGS @ 1.220", it jumps to 1125fps & I get to 12fps SD. Unique just gets better as you get closer to the top end. Again, SD means little if they shoot well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Really Chris, low 20s is pretty good for Unique. Your results are pretty much same as mine for the LP & Unique. At 8gr, 185grXTP @ 1.220", I get 1055fps/23fps SD in my 5" 1911. Go to a 185grRGS @ 1.220", it jumps to 1125fps & I get to 12fps SD. Unique just gets better as you get closer to the top end. Again, SD means little if they shoot well.
Good to know, thanks Fred. I also found out that my WC mouse farts are only going 560fps.
 

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Without knowing the case volume Im not sure how much I would attribute the difference to only the primer.

I wouldnt worry about SD at all. Ive seen some prety hi SD figures on some very very accurate loads. While others with single didgit SD numbers were not accurate at all.

Its one more thing to look at for ballistics I guess but its no guarantee of accuracy
 

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I just got back from the range.


And the results:

Small Pistol Primer
Average Velocity = 969fps

Large Pistol Primer
Average Velocity = 1027fps

Difference of 58fps

The standard deviations were nothing to brag about. Low 20's in the large pistol primer and low 30's in the small pistol primers. We trickled the powder and the bullets were very consistent. So I blame the SD's on the brass or my press:dunno:. But I think the results are still useful.
Just got back from the range (backyard) as well.

The load was 5.9gr of Unique and a 200gr Rainier PHP with CCI standard strengh primers loaded to 1.24 OAL. The LP were sized, then primed with a Lee Auto prime, then loaded on the 550 starting them in position 2. The SP were loaded on the 550b starting in station 1.

Shot from a Colt 1911 Model 70. All had about the same accuracy and clanged the 3" bell at 30 yards. The velocities were measured with a CED M2, temp was about 43F.

The cases were Speer (SP), Win (SP), Fed (SP) and TNZ (LP).

The Speer has the smallest flashhole, and got 744.4 fps

The Win got 759.3 fps

The Fed has the largest flashhole and got 811.4 fps

There was over 60 FPS depending on the flashhole (this was a surprise).

The TNZ (LP) put the pill over the screens at 813 fps.

About 1.5 fps more for LP vs SP (Fed with the largest flashhole).

It looks like I'm giving up very little (1.5 fps) with the Federal SP over regular LP. Not having the change out primer systems is worth it to me. The difference between Speer SP and the LP is more significant (60+ fps). I may look into enlarging the Speer flashholes to the size of the Federal.

XD, I noticed from your pictures, that you had the Win SP cases, and got about 60 fps difference as well. Looks like good verification.
 

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EX-Swage Monkey
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I hate work....But I knew SPP in .45acp where for wussies, and i did not even need a Chrono.
 

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That is a nice looking range compared to here in the northeast where we have 5 feet of snow on the ground. I'm jealous.
 

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Without knowing the case volume Im not sure how much I would attribute the difference to only the primer.

I wouldnt worry about SD at all. Ive seen some prety hi SD figures on some very very accurate loads. While others with single didgit SD numbers were not accurate at all.

Its one more thing to look at for ballistics I guess but its no guarantee of accuracy
I would bet there is less than 1gr diff in case volumn between any brand in 45acp, which wouldn't make much diff in the vel numbers.
 

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local trouble maker
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with water.
 

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Got Pb?
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I would bet there is less than 1gr diff in case volumn between any brand in 45acp, which wouldn't make much diff in the vel numbers.

Thats just it, can really run a "test" without all the info. Is there a difference in capacity, does the flash hole size matter, If you did the same test using a different brand of primers would you get the same result?

I think in 45acp running at such low pressure I dont know if any of it matters too much.

Heck I was playing with the Ransom rest one day, 50 yards, just checking some loads.
Mixed brass, 2 different loads, different powders, different bullet weight and style. Put 10 shots of each in the same 2" group. All 20 shots in one ragged hole
Gotta love 45acp
 

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And the results:

Small Pistol Primer
Average Velocity = 969fps

Large Pistol Primer
Average Velocity = 1027fps

Difference of 58fps

The standard deviations were nothing to brag about. Low 20's in the large pistol primer and low 30's in the small pistol primers. We trickled the powder and the bullets were very consistent. So I blame the SD's on the brass or my press:dunno:. But I think the results are still useful.
Well, I just loaded up some loads with SP to duplicate Xd loads (7.7 gr Unique behind a 185gr JHP.)

They felt a bit stout in the 1911. A few had some slight flattening of the primers. Not a load I'd like to keep shooting. I used the Federal brass (it has the larger flashholes - .099"). The results:

Avg Vel: 1105 fps (about 75fps faster than XD)

ES: 70 SD 23.5



I also drilled out five of the Speer SP cases (Speer has the smallest flashole) to .099 (same as the Federal SP cases).

Then I loaded up some of the same load as before with the 200gr Rainier PHP. The larger flash hole increased the velocity from 744 fps to 800 fps.

So, in the end, the SP doesn't seem to take a performance hit compared to LP *IF* you use the Federal NT cases with the larger (.099") flashhole. There is a 50-60fps hit using the Speer and Win NT SP cases with the smaller flashholes. It appears you can overcome this by opening up the flashholes to the size of the Federal SP cases. Since there is more material in the SP head vs the LP head, it appears this can be safely done. I'm not suggesting opening the flashhole up beyond what you can find in the Federal case.

These test were done with standard CCI primers. Speer and Winchester may have gone to a smaller flashhole if they used a more energetic primer. Federal, with their larger flashhole, seems to be a close match with regular primers to LP ACP.

I'll stick to the SP ACP brass.
 

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Since E=MC squared one would think that the energy contained in the same amount of powder would not differ. Therefore the SP must result in unburnt powder. Interesting observations. I'll ream out my flash holes in all my SP brass and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for taking the time to conduct these trials.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Good info Dudel.

I was going to use the large hole federal brass at first but I was having trouble seating the small primers in them. It was like they were crimped. Did you swage yours to get them to work?
 

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Good info Dudel.

I was going to use the large hole federal brass at first but I was having trouble seating the small primers in them. It was like they were crimped. Did you swage yours to get them to work?

Thanks Chris.

Yep, they sure did appear to have a crimp on the primer pocket. I used a chamfer tool to cut a bit of it away. One of these bad boys: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=789334

Cheap and easy. A quick twist and the pocket has a slight bevel at the mouth that lets the primer seat easily. I'd be interested to see if you get a speed increase just by moving to the Federal SP brass.
 

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Since E=MC squared one would think that the energy contained in the same amount of powder would not differ. Therefore the SP must result in unburnt powder. Interesting observations. I'll ream out my flash holes in all my SP brass and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for taking the time to conduct these trials.
True enough regarding conversion of energy; however different powder lots will give different results, and different barrels have different friction coefficients. I was shooting in colder weather than Chris, which affects the chemical reaction. On the other hand, I thought we were pretty close in our results. I was surprised to see such an effect from the flash hole.

I wasn't seeing any unburnt powder, although this was the older, dirtier Unique. I selected this because I was initially going to compare against some older LP rounds that I had to save from having to prime the LP cases. However, I didn't have any more of the projectiles loaded up in the old rounds, so I worked them up with new projectiles (but old powder).

7.7gr was a tad stout with some primer flattening noticed on some (not all) of the cases.
 

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Conifer Jack
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Since E=MC squared one would think that the energy contained in the same amount of powder would not differ. Therefore the SP must result in unburnt powder. Interesting observations. I'll ream out my flash holes in all my SP brass and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for taking the time to conduct these trials.
Good God, now we're talking about E=MC Squared... that's it, I'm taking up archery. :crying:


Jack
 
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