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Rational
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do you agree with Randy Garrett about this?

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
I'm not sure that I buy it when it comes to these calibers. It's not exactly a .223 Remington.

Mind you, I've never performed penetration tests with any .45 caliber firearm. Or any firearm, for that matter. Nor have I ever hunted.

So what do you think? Is he trying to be cute with marketing his +P .45-70 rounds, or is there some truth to what he says? I know light, small caliber bullets at higher velocities tend to penetrate less than heavier bullets, but with greater expansion and permanent wound cavity. But is this also true for big bore solids?
 

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Depends on the bullet construction. A bullet fired at 2200fps can have more deformation (expansion) than the exact same bullet fired at 1900fps. The increase in expansion diameter can cause the bullet to drag more in the medium thus penetrate less. That does not mean said 45-70 will kill better than said .458 magnum.
 

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If you Google William R. Meehan and John F. Thilenius- Forest Service (link Below) there is a PFD file of a study done for the Forest Service. A 45.70 pretty much out preforms them all when it comes to penetration. The chart on pg.5 shows a 405gr bullet at about 1200fps out of a 45.70 doing slightly better than a 500gr bullet out of a 460Wby moving 1000fps faster. WAY less recoil also. I use a good hard cast bullet and Trapdoor loading data for my Marlin Guide Gun. A quick recovery for a follow up shot is more important to me than velocity. I know penetration is not an issue with a good hard cast bullet.https://www.google.com/search?ei=tv.......0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.x0Uf4Dx4r3Q
 

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Talking solids, bullet nose shape has a lot to do with. Could a 45-70 out penetrate a 458, yes with the right bullet shape. I have shot my hvy 45colt loads; 285gr lswc at 1000fps vs a 404 jeffery 400gr soft. Penetration is almost identical, but when switching to solids in the jeffery, not even close, 404 easily doubles it. Vel is important, but not so much when talking proper solids.
 

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It's funny, never see a 45/70 on safari in Africa when hunting any of the big 5, especially elephant or cape buffalo. You will see both .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott.

I wonder how many of those tests were using bullets expressly made for that caliber or just run of the mill 45 caliber bullets? Any safari grade .458 Lott will more than likely be a solid or a bonded, full jacket soft nose to control expansion.

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FWIW, a 458 can be loaded down to do what a
45-70 does when it is loaded up or down.

It is kinda like a high pressure 45-90 to 45-110,
in the middle of them, can be loaded with their
old low pressure data. See the Lyman manual.

I have had two of each, still have a 45-70 and will
hopefully one day make a stainless steel 458, and
shot many cast boolits in both of them.

One load was a 555gr lyman boolit, in the 45-70
it went around 1600fps and in the 458 over 2000fps.

That load was not stable in the marlin GG at over 100yds.

This boolit is good in both of them and can reach full
velocities in the 458.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690376/double-cavity-mold-c457-500-f

Double Cavity Mold C457-500-F

At close to 2200fps it does have some recoil though,
would probably not shoot that load in my brittle old
state. I have smaller boolit molds for us old people.
 

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Rational
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It's funny, never see a 45/70 on safari in Africa when hunting any of the big 5, especially elephant or cape buffalo. You will see both .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott.

I wonder how many of those tests were using bullets expressly made for that caliber or just run of the mill 45 caliber bullets? Any safari grade .458 Lott will more than likely be a solid or a bonded, full jacket soft nose to control expansion.

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If you had a 22" Henry All-Weather in .45-70, would you challenge, with confidence, the Big 5 with a 500gr. solid?
 

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Rational
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Absolutely not!

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Then it makes me beg the question of what the point of rounds like this are:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570exitertech.html



It clearly says on the box that it is fine for elephant, rhino, hippo, and cape buffalo. I mean, if it can take those, then it's pretty much top of the pack when it comes to .45-70.

Even Buffalo Bore makes a bad ass load:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=154
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=154
And while Underwood's 305gr load is a little light for elephant, rhino, and hippo, I would feel confident taking it out against cape buffalo and lion:

https://underwoodammo.com/product/rifle-ammo/45-70-government-p-305-grain-xtreme-penetrator/

They make heavier solid lead loads, but I'm not sure if those would work against elephant, hippo, and rhino.

But hey....I've never hunted, so what do I know? :dunno:
 

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If you had a 22" Henry All-Weather in .45-70, would you challenge, with confidence, the Big 5 with a 500gr. solid?
Fifteen years ago I would have done it with my 454 lever gun and
even one of my 454 revolvers with a backup. We made our
own cast and solid copper bullets. Still make the cast.

In 85 I got a mold from SSK Industries, JD Jones, for the 44 mag,
it cast a 335gr boolit and came with pressure tested load data,
was shooting it at 1450fps in a 7.5'' BH and RH, yes I chronographed
it many times.

This article has a version of it, he made at least three versions,
http://www.lasc.us/AfricanHunt-CastBullets.htm#loaddata

I know this is not the big five buy you can still learn much from
it, his load is going around 250+fps less and is 35gr less in weight.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTeEmNUkjw


If I had the money I would go to both Africa and Australia
if I knew it would be safe from people.
 

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Then it makes me beg the question of what the point of rounds like this are:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570exitertech.html



It clearly says on the box that it is fine for elephant, rhino, hippo, and cape buffalo. I mean, if it can take those, then it's pretty much top of the pack when it comes to .45-70.

Even Buffalo Bore makes a bad *** load:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=154
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=154
And while Underwood's 305gr load is a little light for elephant, rhino, and hippo, I would feel confident taking it out against cape buffalo and lion:

https://underwoodammo.com/product/rifle-ammo/45-70-government-p-305-grain-xtreme-penetrator/

They make heavier solid lead loads, but I'm not sure if those would work against elephant, hippo, and rhino.

But hey....I've never hunted, so what do I know? :dunno:
The .500 S&W is cleared for buffalo and elephant in Africa but I wouldn't hunt with one of those either.
You asked if I would confidently and I answered no. That doesn't mean the round isn't capable. It means I wouldn't use it. For the big 5 I would use:

Leopard- .300 Win Mag
Lion- .375 RUM
Buffalo and Elephant- .458 Lott
Rhino- Bow with tranq dart accompanied by a biology team. The only way I would kill a Rhino is if they had a rogue that was endangering a local village.
Hippo- has replaced the rhino on a lot of big 5 lists and would on mine. In the case of hippo hunting, .375 RUM since most shots are brain shots with the animal in the water.

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Rational
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The .500 S&W is cleared for buffalo and elephant in Africa but I wouldn't hunt with one of those either.
You asked if I would confidently and I answered no. That doesn't mean the round isn't capable. It means I wouldn't use it. For the big 5 I would use:

Leopard- .300 Win Mag
Lion- .375 RUM
Buffalo and Elephant- .458 Lott
Rhino- Bow with tranq dart accompanied by a biology team. The only way I would kill a Rhino is if they had a rogue that was endangering a local village.
Hippo- has replaced the rhino on a lot of big 5 lists and would on mine. In the case of hippo hunting, .375 RUM since most shots are brain shots with the animal in the water.

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All good points for sure.
 

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Others here are better qualified to answer the "why".
The article is an apples to cupcakes comparison. All solid rounds don't react the same in flesh. Many expanding rounds penetrate deeper when slower, but carry less energy.
Bullet tech is a balancing act. Penetration isn't the end all. Enough is enough. People say energy isn't important, but energy moves things, breaks things and drives things. Too much and you get over expansion or fragmentation and not enough penetration. Too little and you get an ice pick.
Lots of "knowledge" is out there, but how it is used is the trick.
Obsess Safely
 
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It's funny, never see a 45/70 on safari in Africa when hunting any of the big 5, especially elephant or cape buffalo. You will see both .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott.

I wonder how many of those tests were using bullets expressly made for that caliber or just run of the mill 45 caliber bullets? Any safari grade .458 Lott will more than likely be a solid or a bonded, full jacket soft nose to control expansion.

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IT has been done & with older double rifle equiv loads. Solids work, just not as well on all the big 5 as good softs. Today, you are hard pressed to find a PH that will want you to use solids on anything but elephant, maybe hippo, never the big cats. Good softs just kill faster with identical hits in higher vel offerings. If you hunt with a handgun or 45-70, then flat point solids are about as good as it gets.
 

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Do you agree with Randy Garrett about this?
Only if you're talking expanding projectiles and not solids. With expanding bullets the faster you drive them the more they expand and the less they penetrate. But with solids the faster you drive them the more they penetrate.

On African game, solids are preferred on Cape Buffalo, Hippos, and Elephants.

Randy Garret probably doesn't sell much 458 Win or 458 Lott ammo. He sells 45-70 ammo and that's what this advertising pitch is all about.
 

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IT has been done & with older double rifle equiv loads. Solids work, just not as well on all the big 5 as good softs. Today, you are hard pressed to find a PH that will want you to use solids on anything but elephant, maybe hippo, never the big cats. Good softs just kill faster with identical hits in higher vel offerings. If you hunt with a handgun or 45-70, then flat point solids are about as good as it gets.
No doubt. Many were killed with bigger and smaller Black powder rounds. I read a story once about Roy Weatherby killing a Cape Buffalo with a .264 Weatherby Mag. It can and has been done but I wouldn't "feel confident" doing it.

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No doubt. Many were killed with bigger and smaller Black powder rounds. I read a story once about Roy Weatherby killing a Cape Buffalo with a .264 Weatherby Mag. It can and has been done but I wouldn't "feel confident" doing it.

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Lets say sniping a cape buff. Same thing for hunting big 5 with handguns & bows. No room for any error & you are always backed by a PH with a heavy rifle. My trips for cape buff had guides carrying 458winmag & 470NE as stoppers; to be used inside 10yds. Not where you want to play with high vel anything, just big heavy bullets smacking into the skull.
My stopper is a 404jeffery, but only because I can't shoot anything bigger from any possible shooting position & get fast good hits. I am confident a 400gr solid @ 2100fps to the brain bucket would stop just about anything short of a T-Rex.
 

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Only if you're talking expanding projectiles and not solids. With expanding bullets the faster you drive them the more they expand and the less they penetrate. But with solids the faster you drive them the more they penetrate.

On African game, solids are preferred on Cape Buffalo, Hippos, and Elephants.

Randy Garret probably doesn't sell much 458 Win or 458 Lott ammo. He sells 45-70 ammo and that's what this advertising pitch is all about.
This is NOT always true. There is a diminishing return. Many PH will not shoot any 45 bore faster than a 458lott because conventional FMJ can rivet. Monosolids, totally diff, but there is a phenom about to high a vel even with those solids that can retard penetration.
 
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