.40 S&W 165 vs 180 grain

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Staffordshire, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Not sure what's up with Unlucky Gunner but the bullets shown in the 165gr GD photo look a lot like 357 Sig rounds! Here is what 165gr GDs look like. The fabric on the nose of the bullets also looks phony like it was placed there by hand.

    [​IMG]



    This is the nose of a GD 357 Sig.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  2. 87'vette

    87'vette

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    I load180 gr in 40S&W only because i use same bullet for my 10mm. I dont like to go less than 180 in my 10mm's, so I buy Montana golds or XTP's in both 180 and 200gr. Do you think in a self defense senario (short distance), a 165 vs 180 grain is really going to matter? either projectile weight will do its job. pick the weight (or the particular load) you are more comfortable shooting. :flag:
     

  3. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Doh ?
    Yep, I'm pretty sure LG just put some shreds fabric on the bullets, and falsified the expansion just to to be 'dissin' the gold dots - a load that they sell.

    There was a thread awhile back where 2 or 3 out of 5 165 GDs failed to expand in water jugs.

    https://thereloadersnetwork.com/201...t-review-sig-p239-vs-smith-and-wesson-shield/
     
  4. 4949shooter

    4949shooter

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    Yes...I absolutely do remember. Excellent post...
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Figures, in a way.

    First they decided to go with an attenuated 10mm instead of the then-current 10mm Auto loads (which included a Federal 190gr JHP, if I remember right), and then after accepting the .40 S&W they requested an attenuated load for it, too.

    Why not just designate whatever calibers/loads the FBI adopts to henceforth be called by their earlier nickname ... Fed-Lite? :p

    When they carried M13's and they could be authorized to carry the 145gr STHP MAG load, I wonder how many opted and were approved to carry it over the standard .38 S&W SPL 158gr LSWCHP +P?
     
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  6. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    There isn't that much difference performance-wise between teh two, so it comes down to which one is the most accurate in your gun. In my G23, the Hornady Critical duty 175 grain is most accurate so that's what I carry.
     
  7. 4949shooter

    4949shooter

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    Here is a pull down on the 190 grain JHP load. Probably about 500 pounds of energy according to the estimates. Way below 10mm power. I think the FBI settled on a 180 grain bullet at the same or similar velocity.

    http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/federal-xm1003a-190gr-bonded-tc-jhp-pull-down/
     
  8. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    The rounds in the picture aren't 165gr GDs they're 125gr GD 357 Sig rounds that show no damage from having hit a barrier of any type. Because of the 357 Sig GDs velocity it rarely fails to expand much less 6 rounds that look as if they were never fired.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  9. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Doh ?
    Pretty amazing that they (in the earlier post) are .357 SIG since they measured 0.4" OD.



    The .357 sig GDs seemed to expand just fine.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Okay look at the unfired GD round in this picture then look at the "165gr GD rounds in your post". They're both 125gr 357 Sig bullets LG obviously posted the wrong picture.

    This is what a 165gr GD bullet nose looks like.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Here's a guy in Georgia that tested 165 gr GDs with similar results in heavy clothing and water.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    That's cool but that's not a 165gr GD round in LGs picture. Reference post # 70 to see what a 165gr round looks like.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  13. Staffordshire

    Staffordshire

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    Shot some of the Blazer Brass 165 along with my regular S&B 180 grain today using a Glock 22 and a Beretta PX4 Storm. There was no discernible difference in recoil. If I had to guess one way or the other, the Blazer 165 was a little lighter in recoil. Of course, I was expecting the 165 to be a bit hotter, so who knows.
     
  14. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Considering the listed velocity specs for the Blazer Brass 165gr load (1050fps), I'd not be surprised that it would exhibit a light felt recoil impulse. That's on a par, velocity-wise, with the Winchester USA 165gr load (1060fps).

    Now, increase the velocity another 90-100fps and you might feel a little more "snap". I'd not be surprised if you might notice a little difference in the 2 different Speer 165gr GDHP loads, at 1050 & 1150fps.
     
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  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    You guys all understand that bullets quietly change quite often among manuf? The GD today is likely not the one from 4-5Y ago. Same for XTP & other btw.
     
  16. UncleDave

    UncleDave

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    I usually carried my G23 with 165gr GD or HST. I read that 180's are more sensitive to setback, although I always keep administrative loading/unloading to a minimum and never had a problem. I mostly used 165's because the specs on paper seemed a little better compared to similar 180gr loads.
     
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  17. fredj338

    fredj338

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    There should be no diff in setback between bullet wts. The neck tension is either there or it isn't. If anything, 180gr would favor better neck tension, longer bearing surface.
     
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  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Some folks might mistake the difference between case/neck tension and the decreased amount of empty case space for rounds using 180gr bullets, meaning a very small amount of setback could create some significantly higher pressures.
     
  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yes possible, but that is also very powder dependent. guys that load & unload daily just need to pay attention to the first round in. I pretty much leave my ccw loaded but if I do unload, I tend to rotate the top round down. Things don't get scary with setback in 9, 357sig & 40 until you get to more than 1/16" setback in my exp (0.060"). In 45acp, I don't even think setback is an issue, pressures are just so low.
     
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  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yeah, I didn't used to pay attention to setback in my .45ACP as a younger shooter, but I did sometimes notice that every now and then one of my repeatedly chambered .45ACP loads would go BOOM instead Boom in my Combat Commander. o_O

    After I became an armorer I eventually noticed that the subject was mentioned in some of the armorer classes. Over time it went from them recommending to carefully inspect rounds that had been chambered a few times, each time they were unloaded/ejected, and to discard any noticeably shortened rounds ... to ... minimizing the number of times a round might be chambered (if not fired), and "rotating" such rounds in the magazine to reduce the number of times a particular round might be chambered ... to ... avoid doing it ... to ... DO NOT CHAMBER AND EJECT THE SAME ROUND REPEATEDLY! (That last line is not only in large Bold typeface, but in red, in the manual in front of me. ;) )

    In one class the instructor told us that he'd learned one of the other gun companies had reportedly done a simple industry survey of some different ammunition companies, asking how many times a particular pistol round could be safely chambered. The answer was supposedly that the major ammo makers basically said they produced their pistol ammunition to very careful tolerances, and they were safe to feed and chamber in a pistol ... once ... but that doing it more than once was the at the responsibility of the owner/user.

    Here's a spec listed for the Speer .38 SPL +P Short Barrel revolver cartridge (not a pistol cartridge, but it's the only tech data package I have at hand).

    Bullets shall have a push resistance of 50lb average, 30lb minimum individual when compressed .030 inches below nominal length.

    I was reading info from an older LE/Gov pistol ammunition contract spec once (found it available online) that included the requirement for the Push resistance (pressure against seated bullet nose) to be higher than that used for the same cartridge made for the company's commercial load. If I remember right, that was for a .357SIG load, and the Push resistance was specified to be 75lbs, instead of 50lbs.

    I prefer to avoid chambering any pistol round more than twice (if it appears fine after the first time), and if it still appears fine after the second time it's ejected, the next (and last) time I'll chamber it will be at the range, to use it for range ammo. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
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