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380 Auto Chronograph results, various powders

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by WeeWilly, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. AP2020

    AP2020

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    Once again, thank you for your efforts Willy.

    In other news, I am getting some Jagemann Brass to try the LD 90gr. XD in my 42. With the brand new 380ACP Starline +P rated brass, the 90gr LD XD would bulge the cases to the point where they will not chamber in my AW barrel. Keep in mind, the Starline brass is brand new and not sized. BTW, I assemble my handgun cartridges on a 1989 Dillon Square Deal B progressive press.

    So.....I will try again when the Jagemann Brass arrives.
     
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  2. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    I will be surprised if different brass will change any bulging results, but it will be interesting to know for sure. The OEM barrel in Glock's straight wall calibers are so generous, I have found going backwards (from Glock barrel to AM barrel dimensions) usually presents problems when the loads you are shooting are very hot.

    In my 10mm twilight zone loads, I have to full length size my cases through a Redding G-Rx if they were shot from my stock G20 chamber and I want the next cycle of the case to chamber in one of my so-called "match" 1911 chambers.
     

  3. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    Never had much problem with 45acp but dropped a Wilson in my 21. The Wolf stays in the 42 also.
     
  4. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    I had a chance to get out for a short test session today.

    BE86 - 5.0 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1069 FPS, SD 21, ES 53 - G42 OEM Barrel
    BE86 - 5.0 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1088 FPS, SD 12, ES 30 - G42 AW Barrel
    BE86 - 5.0 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1079 FPS, SD 15, ES 26 - G42 OEM Barrel
    BE86 - 5.2 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1150 FPS, SD 15, ES 39 - G42 AW Barrel
    BE86 - 5.2 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1095 FPS, SD 32, ES 80 - G42 OEM Barrel
    BE86 - 5.2 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1125 FPS, SD 16, ES 43 - G42 AW Barrel
    BE86 - 5.4 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1135 FPS, SD 18, ES 40 - G42 OEM Barrel
    BE86 - 5.4 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1150 FPS, SD 19, ES 52 - G42 AW Barrel

    The Gold Dots do deliver higher velocities with everything else being equal. I suspect it is because they are softer in the plating, thus sealing better. I didn't have any Gold Dots loaded to 5.4gr, but I think they would be getting pretty close to the Underwood +P XTP numbers (close enough for government work). The XTP bullet is also soft, relaively speaking compared to the Precision Delta FMJ, so again, I think we will see a boost when I get to the final loads.

    I did have a few smiles in the OEM barrel at 5.2gr of BE86, which was strange as I didn't have any with the OEM barrel at 5.4gr and with higher velocity. I am a little unsure what to make of that at this time. I had no smiles again with the Alpha Wolf Barrel.

    On the next cycle, after I get through the rest of the powders I wanted to test on this cycle, I will circle back and try 5.6gr of BE86 and also start doing some XTP tests, we may be getting pretty close with the XTP's and 5.4-5.6gr of BE86. BE86 seems very well behaved and has the bonus of low flash.

    *******. Warning, the loads in this thread are my workups in my gun. Many are well over book loads and should not be used as a load guide. It is for your amusement and gratification only! Do not use these loads in you gun. You must work up your own loads and you must only do that if you have the required experience. *********************
     
  5. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    I had a chance to get out for a short test session today and got my CFE Pistol ladders done. These were all done with the Dillon drop, so I expect a little more variation than drop and trickle which I had used in the past. I am using this method, as I plan to use the press to mass produce my final load and want accurate representations of what I might expect with the load selected.

    As in the past, the Alpha Wold Barrel is faster than the OEM. I expect most of this gain being a little smaller chamber and perhaps a little tighter bore. I also found the Gold Dots produced higher velocities than the Precision Delta jacketed. They were seated to the same depth (the GD's are shorter OAL, then the PD), so I suspect the added velocity is due to the softer plating on the GD's making for a better seal. The jackets on the PD are quite hard. I suspect to get similar results from the XTP bullets to the GD's velocity wise as they too are softer than the PD and I expect I may get similar results with the LeHigh as I did the PD as they are harder like the PD. The LeHigh XD, being so much lighter will probably stand alone with their results when I get around to them.

    I started seeing smiles in the cases with 5.0gr and above using the OEM barrel. By 5.2gr and above, I got smiles in every case at that load shot through the OEM barrel. I didn't get any smiles on the AW barrel shot rounds. At 5.4gr with the OEM barrels, the smiles were still a little short of the Underwood +P 90gr XTP rounds, so I suspect pressures are still a little less than what UW is loading. I suspect CFE Pistol will match the UW +P loading using the 90gr XTP bullet, somewhere close to 5.4gr. In any case, even if it doesn't I likely won't go a lot higher with this one.

    I will endeavor to scrub the above results a few times as this was a lot of data to post by hand and might have made a few typo's along the way. :(

    CFE Pistol - 4.6 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1009 FPS, SD 53, ES 107 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.6 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1048 FPS, SD 9, ES 21 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.6 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 974 FPS, SD 31, ES 77 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.6 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1016 FPS, SD 50, ES 116 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.8 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1030 FPS, SD 68, ES 27 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.8 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1068 FPS, SD 18, ES 40 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.8 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 986 FPS, SD 10, ES 26 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 4.8 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1053 FPS, SD 86, ES 34 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.0 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1083 FPS, SD 31, ES 73 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.0 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1130 FPS, SD 25, ES 65 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.0 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1060 FPS, SD 31, ES 73 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.0 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1116 FPS, SD 24, ES 54 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.2 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1115 FPS, SD 18, ES 48 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.2 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1170 FPS, SD 23, ES 50 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.2 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1090 FPS, SD 8, ES 19 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.2 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1116 FPS, SD 30, ES 65 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.4 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1159 FPS, SD 23, ES 63 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.4 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1202 FPS, SD 17, ES 37 - G42 AW Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.4 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1121 FPS, SD 13, ES 36 - G42 OEM Brl
    CFE Pistol - 5.4 gr, 90gr Gold Dot, .950" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1170 FPS, SD 74, ES 26 - G42 OEM Brl

    *******. Warning, the loads in this thread are my workups in my gun. Many are well over book loads and should not be used as a load guide. It is for your amusement and gratification only! Do not use these loads in you gun. You must work up your own loads and you must only do that if you have the required experience. *********************
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  6. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    If the 86 has a low flash, most must be burning in the bbl. However, CFE produces close to what you want. Fire a couple at night and see which has the lower flash. Can make a difference if you have to defend yourself in low light.
     
  7. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    When I started getting smiles on the BE86, I suspected I would fall short of what the UW +P stuff delivers. When I went back and inspected the smiles (now I have a little more experience with the smiling of the 380 cases), I think maybe there will be a number of mid-range burners that will do the trick. I think when comparing apples to apples with the UW +P cases, I think both BE86 and CFE Pistol will do it. I have a number of others to try (WSF, W572, etc.) just so I know.

    I will cut down on the test suite as I know what the different barrels and the PD and GD bullets do relatively speaking, so I can interpolate to some degree. After this round is done and I have a few candidate powders I want to focus on, I will start using my XTP and LH bullets.

    Federal uses BE86 in their HST and +P HST rounds, so it must be OK as a 9mm bullet powder. :)
     
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  8. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    The Lehigh 65 XDs are a whole different ball game in both weight and base design. I preferred the 90 XDs over them.
    I'm still looking for some 86, but normally use universal under the 90 XDs for carry.
     
  9. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    I am going to give the XD's a go when I get around to them, just to learn about them and I have them already. I have never had good luck with deep hollow based bullets, but maybe this will be the exception.
     
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  10. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    My limited testing resulted in the 65gr bullet not penetrating as far as the 90 gr bullet even though the velocity was higher.
     
  11. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    What were the velocities?

    I am guessing the 65gr would need substantially more than 30% increase in velocity to get similar penetration, as the higher velocity it is running at is really going to cause drag from the cavitation.
     
  12. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    If I remember correctly, about 200 fps faster.
     
  13. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    Just got home and checked my figures. I've pushed the 65gr bullets to 1245 fps. And am running the 90 about 1060 in the Wolf bbl.
     
  14. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    It makes sense you weren't getting the penetration, if I was going to do the math I would probably need a week with the books to get recaught up, but my gut says you might need something closer to +50% more velocity to get anywhere near the same penetration.

    In a way, the 90gr XD might be the more conservative choice in an unproven round. You know you get more penetration that the high speed light projectile and some of the benefit of the deeper flutes (more flow separation), so not quite the energy pass through of the XP.

    I bet if you pushed the 65gr XD up into the 1600fps+, you would have a pretty big shock wave disrupting things.

    I don't have any of the 90gr XD's but think I will order some. Pretty sure I can get them into the 1100's pretty easily.
     
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  15. Timothy Courtney

    Timothy Courtney

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    Yeah, you're probably right. Universal, that I use, won't push that far. Maybe a hot 9 would do it. I could load a few in a .357 lol.
    Would like to see you take a shot at the 90 XDs. 1100 is easy even with Universal.
     
  16. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    I had a chance to get another round done on Power Pistol. As with others in this latest round, I did it with my Dillon powder drop on my 550B. One thing that jumps out is how different powders meter and its effect on the results. Power Pistol doesn't meter quite as smoothly as say the AA powders, or even some like BE86 and CFE Pistol, so I got wider variations pretty much throughout.

    Another factor I saw with the Power Pistol ladders I did today is it is a pretty low energy density powder, it takes a lot of powder to get things going. I got to 5.8gr of PP in my last flight and still had no smiles from the OEM barrel. At 5.8gr, I wasn't quite seeing similar velocities as I did say with 5.4gr of BE86 or CFE Pistol. It is a very tame powder to load. The 5.8gr rung in both barrels seemed to flatten out velocity wise, but when I went back I found one shot in each barrel that was like 50fps low and pulled the average down. I think this was probably more drop metering versus reaching pressure limits.

    At my max today of 5.8gr, there are a lot of fireworks coming from the end of that diminutive G42 barrel, big flash and big concussion, typical Power Pistol light show. I have decided this alone makes for a bad choice for SD ammo, if even practice SD ammo, so I won't pursue PP any further for these tests.

    I actually think if you were willing to live with the massive fireball and concussion, PP probably might end up being the champ in 380 velocity for 90-95gr weight class bullets, given the complete lack of pressure signs at the max velocities I got today, I could likely go quite a bit higher. You definitely would be in the 6+ grs to get there though.

    Power Pistol - 5.2 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1018 FPS, SD 16, ES 43 - G42 OEM Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.2 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1057 FPS, SD 14, ES 34 - G42 AW Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.4 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1052 FPS, SD 14, ES 34 - G42 OEM Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.4 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1079 FPS, SD 29, ES 64 - G42 AW Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.6 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1080 FPS, SD 23, ES 48 - G42 OEM Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.6 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1094 FPS, SD 10, ES 24 - G42 AW Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.8 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1076 FPS, SD 23, ES 54 - G42 OEM Brl
    Power Pistol - 5.8 gr, 95gr PD FMJ/FP, .985" OAL, CCI SP, SA 1101 FPS, SD 29, ES 73 - G42 AW Brl

    I also brought my Kahr P380 along and some Underwood +P 90gr XTP factory loads. When shooting these I got my first feed failures for my P380. The failures were a fail to return to battery and were within like a few thousandths of chambering as the slide would be like 1/8" from being in battery and a slight slap would finish the chambering. I suspect the long bearing surface of the XTP was just jamming in the throat slightly. I might seat a magazines worth maybe .010" deeper and try them, I bet they feed fine after that.

    Underwood +P XTP - SA 1151 FPS, SD 13, ES 41 - Kahr P380 - Wow!

    *******. Warning, the loads in this thread are my workups in my gun. Many are well over book loads and should not be used as a load guide. It is for your amusement and gratification only! Do not use these loads in you gun. You must work up your own loads and you must only do that if you have the required experience. *********************
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  17. AP2020

    AP2020

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    Thanks Willy for the detailed load development on the CFE PISTOL powder.
     
  18. Jim

    Jim

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    Willy, thanks for doing all the work.
    As we discussed, I have one lot of Freedom Munitions .380 reloads using the Xtreme 100 gr plated flat nose, they average 955 fps from my stock G42 which gets me, barely, into the correct power factor for IDPA Backup Gun. They are almost gone and for various reasons I don't particularly trust Freedom, so I wanted a handload that would make PF.

    I too made up a ladder using Power Pistol, the 100 gr plated at OAL .950, Winchester primers, once-fired Speer nickel cases from my carry Gold Dots.
    Five rds loaded with 5.0 gr of PP averaged 970 fps with no smiley cases.
    Further testing is still required...

    As always, don't trust my information to be accurate or applicable to your gun.
    Start out with a good loading manual or powder maker's website.

    BTW, I actually prefer my practice ammo to have a lot of flash and blast because most practice is in fairly good light but most actual shootings happen in dim light.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
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  19. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    Good to hear, pretty sure you will get there with PP, with plenty of margin and no smiles. PP was very well behaved. :)
     
  20. AP2020

    AP2020

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    I am getting close to 1,780fps with the 65gr. XD from my G26 with a 4.6" threaded AW G19 barrel.
    I will do a bare gel test sometime.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
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