38 Casull vs 38/45 Clerke vs 9mm Super

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Tony Rumore, Sep 24, 2018.

  1. Tony Rumore

    Tony Rumore

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    I've owned a 38/45 Clerke 1911 barrel for about 15 years, but never tried it. After seeing the Glock 38 Casull thread, I decided to dust off the Clerke barrel and fit it up to a slide. It didn't take long to figure out that the barrel had either been re-chambered deeper, or someone screwed up and pushed the reamer in too far since there was WAY too much headspace with a full length sized 38/45 case. Here's a pic of several different 9mm/45 rounds.

    Left to Right - 38/45 Clerke, My bastard barrel, 38 Casull, 9mm Super.

    [​IMG]

    After shooting it for a bit, I have come to the conclusion that an unsupported 1911 barrel isn't really the right platform for this round, so I ordered a 9mm Super reamer to rechamber a 6" Witness barrel. When it arrives, I'll post some load data for it.

    Tony Rumore
    Tromix

    P.S. The 9mm Super is a 40 Super case necked to 9mm. JGS makes the reamer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  2. ss30378

    ss30378

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    Awesome Tony im looking forward to your results!
     
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  3. babue

    babue

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    Really interesting. I will keep and eye out for your next report. Wondering how they will compare to the 357 Sig. I am a 38 Super fan from when i shot a 1911.
     
  4. ss30378

    ss30378

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    As a quick comparison, I've loaded a 125xtp to 1750fps in the sig loaded to 10mm OAL which was fired in a 6" g20 barrel. These were maximum (I really should say above max) loads that matched if not exceeded most 9x25 loads. In my 38 casull (6" g20 barrel as well) however, I pushed the same slug to a 1969fps average and I believe there's more left in it.

    The 38/45, 38 casull and Tony's 9mm super are the WSM series of pistol rounds. The sharp shoulder with a short fat powder column allows for more efficient burning of powder allowing the use of much slower powders. I was running alliant 300mp in my 125gr 38 casull loads which is a magnum revolver powder and would normally be much too slow for any pistol duty. In the sig 300mp was good for a large fireball but velocities were down in the 14-1550 range but in the casull it approached the 2000fps mark. I still have to complete my 296 workups but it looks like that one will be a good choice as well. I'm now working up some very light bullet loads (65-90gr) with aa9 and 2400 just to see what kind of numbers are possible...
     
  5. es 350

    es 350

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    The headspace issue could be overcome by setting size die for correct headspace in your chamber just as with any cartridge that headspaces off the shoulder . From other post of yours I have read and the fact that you are going to be reaming your witess barrel you are probably already aware of this, others may not . This way you could still use the 1911 barrel without premature case failure and loss of accuracy due to exessive headspace.

    The Witness , with its full chamber support will be a much better/safer platform to "play" with as you already know.
    Although I would bet some good numbers could be achieved in 1911 barrel using 800x powder before a "Glock smile" showed up.
    I have loaded into 460 Rowland Territory in G36, G39 and G37's unsupported barrels with a Brake to control slide speed. Lighter bullets create less pressure, .355 bullets of normal weight ,would be even less than 185 .452 bullets. The sharp shoulder of 38/45 class cartridges would affect this to some degree .
    If it were me I would would use spp brass (NON MAG PRIMER) formed in die setup to provide proper headspace and loaded with 800x powder (296, H110, 300 MP as well as other slow burners could also be WORKED UP) to enjoy the 1911 barrel for what it is.
    Above is for safe , methodical reloaders that knows what to look for when working up loads!
    Tony is CORRECT that the unsupported 1911 chamber is NOT the best platform for pushing limits of 38/45 OR ANY OTHER CALIBER!
    Am looking forward to hearing your results as well as which Witness you will be using in your project (pics lol) they are
    NICE guns!
     
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  6. Tony Rumore

    Tony Rumore

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    Hopefully I won't get kicked off the board for not using a Glock, but the Witness is really a great platform for goofing around with wildcat calibers since every caliber factory barrel will fit and function in every caliber slide....as long as you stick with the large frame guns. The only reason I started with the 1911 was simply because I had that barrel laying around. After seeing the earlier Casull thread, I went out and bought some 300-MP powder since it seemed to work pretty damn well. I have about 200 different powders in stock, but of course, I didn't have that one.

    I tried unsuccessfully to obtain the real 38 Casull chamber reamer print, but it just wasn't going to happen, but at least I was able to get the last set of RCBS 38 Casull dies from them. I just think the 9mm Super is a better way to go, since the user can just neck down a Starline 40 Super case and not screw around with any trimming or multiple forming tasks.

    The 9mm Super is probably closer to the 350 JAWS case than the 38 Casull, but getting the JAWS print wasn't happening either. With that said, there is no need for anymore of this secret proprietary BS...here's the 9mm Super chamber reamer print if anyone wants to play with it.

    Tony Rumore
    Tromix

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  7. Tony Rumore

    Tony Rumore

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    I wanted to add one more thing....I surmise that Dick Casull designed his round rather short, because back then, the 9mm bullets all had rather short back ends on them, and long noses. So to get the OAL of the loaded round to work, he had to shorten the case/neck. This was a big problem when the 9x25 Dillon came out as well. The case was too long to work with most 9mm bullets and still make the OAL magazine length. Only the super short lightweight bullets would work in it. Fast forward to the .357 Sig coming out. It also required bullets with a short front end, and the bullet manufactures started making specific ".357 Sig" designed bullets that would meet the shorter OAL limits. Today, just about every 9mm bullet has been redesigned to work in the Sig type cases and they have dropped the ".357 Sig" moniker from those specially designed bullets, so the 9mm Super gets away with it's longer length simply because times have changed and the 9mm bullets are different today than they were when the 38 Casull was designed.

    Tony
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  8. ss30378

    ss30378

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    Nah no kicking you off here the witness is an awesome platform! My gun is simply a 38/45 reamer that was run .030 deeper and my dies set accordingly. I also ran a .359 rifle throat reamer deep enough to run the .359 diameter missouri bullet pugnose (180gr wfn) out to max mag length. I use blazer spp 45 brass for my loads and use small rifle primers. Ive had good success with the 357 mag specific bullets.
     
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  9. 475AR10

    475AR10

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    Tony, any update on the 9mm super? I have been thinking of playing with it in a DI AR15 with a 6"-8" barrel so it would be a nice compact weapon and maybe do an encore or G2 barrel for it as well. Do you plan to only run jacketed bullets or play with cast as well?
     
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  10. fredj338

    fredj338

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    How dies the 9 super compare to the 9x25 dillon.
     
  11. 475AR10

    475AR10

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    Not sure yet, I think it has a little more capacity then the 9x25 Dillon but am not 100% sure on that. I am going to draw up the 9mm Super in Quickload and then can compare the two.
     
  12. ss30378

    ss30378

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    The 9 super has more capacity than my casull which already more capacity than the dillon. Its essentially a 460 rowland necked to 9mm. I know tony posted some results in the 10mm-firearms forum and with the 65gr slug in the 9 super and he got 2725fps with 3n38 with a 6in witness barrel.
     
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  13. 475AR10

    475AR10

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    Thanks, I will see if I can find it.
     
  14. 9MAX

    9MAX

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    Has this neat project gone any further? Wonder if this cartridge will feed in Glock 21 13rnd mags or HK USP (even MK23 mags with the longer feed lips) Id like to get a barrel made. Too bad the daisan barrels from lonewolf are now a thing of the past. This would be a sweet cartridge in a MK23.
     
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  15. Bruce Drake

    Bruce Drake

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    Tony,

    I'd be interested in that 1911 barrel and die set if you are willing to pass it along. adjusting the dies to fit that barrel is something I've done to other wildcats and I've been looking for that particular caliber 1911 barrel and caliber combo for more than a decade.

    send me a PM when you see this message if you are willing to discuss. Thanks!

    Bruce