357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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  2. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    And yet the last couple of gel testing events done at our range, one of which was during a similar time period as the linked video, hosting Winchester's mobile gel lab (using actual organic ballistic gel blocks they prepared), showed that the 127gr +P+ expanded in the test shots. Bare gel, Heavy Clothing and veh windshield glass. Kinda looked like the LE brochure's averaged gel test results and pics. Go figure.

    The ammunition gel testing events I've attended over the years all involved the ammunition companies bringing their mobile demo ballistic testing trailers & equipment, and involved them preparing the organic gel blocks and keeping them refrigerated until the demo tests began. Apparently, they wanted us to see "testing" that replicated the testing done at the factories, which meant using the same organic gel medium.

    The difference was that unlike in the factories, where they could carefully control the environment, demo testing done outside in the open air meant the natural environment and temperature variations could start to warm the gel blocks when they were removed from the trailers.
     
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  3. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    BTW, it's not impossible that something about a particular production lot/run might result in a materials or manufacturing problem. This is why some large agencies (or state procurement agencies) may have sometimes done random spot checks of received shipments, looking for issues with randomly tested round to exhibit something that fails to meet the original required performance specifications. Might be an issue meeting the stated velocity spec, or it might be a problem in ballistic testing, etc.

    I've known of this happening with tested rounds failing to meet minimum velocity specifications in the past. It's not unusual for contract language to contain language which allows for the return of any case(s) suspected of being out-of-spec and being immediately replaced with fresh cases. Or, the requested return of specific production lots, if identified by the manufacturer as being affected by a production QC issue. (I've seen a notice go out for one of the calibers on a previous state contract involving a problem of this type.)

    Imagine if the cutters used to make the notching and skiving cuts in the jackets were too dull to make sufficiently deep notching cuts through the jacket, which might hinder the intended expansion. Fortunately, nowadays manufacturers have access to better equipment which has become better at self-monitoring for sharpness (and other issues), alerting the operators (like the CNC cutters used to make frames and slides).

    It's one of those "never say never" things to always keep in the back of your mind. That's why I still make a quick tactile and visual inspection of each round I load into a pistols magazine or revolver cylinder, if only to hope to catch any type of QC problems that would be visible to the naked eye, at least. ;)

    These two rounds are a couple of examples of rounds from older duty ammo inventories that came to my attention. easy enough to see if you're paying attention, right? ;)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The guy who experienced a "PFFFT!" ignition with another round out of the box of that Golden Sabre load was surprised, and brought me the gun, along with the mangled case and loose bullet (fell out of the chamber with the fired case). When I checked the same box, that's when I found the above round I kept and used for this pic. No other issues were found in the box, or the case from which the box came, or from any of the other cases of that production lot which we received. Just a couple OOPS issues during automated manufacturing that slipped through the cracks.

    Pick a major brand of ammunition, and I can probably give you an example of such problems discovered on an agency range. It can happen. Not very often, thankfully. I think we got something like 20K rounds of that 9mm load in that one delivery, so that's not "bad odds".

    You can't "see" short loads (propellant), though (think squib), or inert primers. You can see reversed primers, though.

    I've also knows of a couple rounds, years apart and from 2 different major ammo makers, in 2 different calibers, where the cases were improperly trimmed just too long to allow for chambering and the /slide barrel to go into battery. In those instances, the pistols were out-of-battery enough to disconnect and stop them from firing.

    One of those instances involved me, while shooting on our range. The affected round didn't appear different from the rest of the rounds out on the range. I had to go back to the armory bench and closely examine the round, next to a "good" round, to see the case length was just barely (but enough) longer than other rounds. I checked the round in another make pistol, and it also failed to let the slide/barrel of that gun go into full battery. Damn, right?

    This is where thoroughly ingrained stoppage clearance techniques may be helpful when things are happening in some chaotic swirl of fur in the real world. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  4. 4949shooter

    4949shooter

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    I seem to recall a bad lot of Winchester +p+ 127 grain Ranger that had gotten out a while back. The above round may have been from that lot or batch.
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Not an impossibility. Never say never. ;)

    I've learned of either agency rejections and returns, or manufacturers quietly calling back production lots made for LE orders, involving Remington (GS) Winchester (Ranger), Speer (GDHP) and Federal (HST) duty ammunition over the years. It can happen. If there had been more LE contracts for Hornady, it might've happened to them, too. (Haven't heard how their FBI contract has done, after they were awarded one of the current FBI ammo contracts. The FBI can be fussy eaters. :p )
     
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  6. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    As far as LEAs and ammo usage goes I'm not sure what is involved with "being happy" and who in the agency is happy. For what it's worth happy is very subjective. Then there is personal caliber preference that may enter into the happy thinking thing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  7. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I stated this before on the concept of energy transfer or dump, but some poopoo the notion. Bullets transform much of their energy deforming into heat. Why we like to work in reality vs theory. Several here like to quote physics, well here ya go.
    In real life, most moving particles lose energy through friction, so that their kinetic energies eventually are transferred to heat energy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  8. hivel9mm

    hivel9mm

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    So what you’re saying then, is that they are also getting scorched by the lightning effect...

    :notworthy:
     
  9. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    The Kansas Highway Patrol and one local PD’s recently changed to 9mm. They both went to the Critical Duty 135 +P, is what I’ve been told. I was able to see the KHP’s rounds, in mags, but I couldn’t verify it was the 135 grain. The other local PD switched from 147gr Hydrashok to the 135gr +P Critical Duty.
     
  10. fredj338

    fredj338

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    :highfive:
     
  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I am not a huge CD fan but the old 147 HS was not a great performer. I do like the idea of 135gr +p though. More manuf should look,at that vs 147 imo.
     
  12. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    After 90 pages, this dead horse must be absolutely pulverized by now I would think.
     
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  13. Valmet

    Valmet M62/76 Silver Member

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    90 pages and 10.5 years...
     
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  14. 4949shooter

    4949shooter

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    The Texas DPS (Highway Patrol) and New Mexico Highway Patrol both carried .357 Sigs for a while. Both had good success with them. The US Secret Service no longer carries it either. I believe they all are back to 9mm now.

    The .357 Sig round, though in my opinion has a lot to offer, seems to have run it's course. It is now relegated to niche shooters and enthusiasts, much like the 10mm has been. Though the 10mm has more relevancy for outdoor use. Time will tell if the .357 Sig survives.
     
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  15. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Now that they were awarded one of contracts for the FBI, maybe Hornady is starting to promote their FTX Critical Duty line. Kansas have a statewide contract system for ammunition procurement? Or a Hornady distributor who is promoting the line?
     
  16. unit1069

    unit1069

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    Bump

    I've decided to ditch my .357sig in favor of .25ACP, the most documented fight stopper on record.
     
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  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Or you could cover your bases and carry the 357 Sig as a BUG!
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  18. OdinIII

    OdinIII

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    I’m glad to see someone here has some sense! Unit is basing his carry choices on actual results from shootings compiled over years. No anecdotal evidence ever entered his mind!
     
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  19. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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    you'd get more hits on target with 22LR and the reduced recoil it provides...
     
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  20. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    I wish somebody could edit the thread title to the more accurate:

    .357 Sig, not all that special.