357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I can carry anything I want, 9mm thru 44mag, yes I choose a 9mm for edc. I choose +p in my g26 because I am already reducing vel with the shorter bbl. I also have a G27, but see negatives; one less round & slower hit times. Not a lot but measurable so why if both are doing the same thing; punching 60-65cal holes to vitals??
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    It does NOT do more damage, that is the point. If both bullets expands to 60-65cal, both penetrate to 15-16", both make 400ft#, how can one do more damage than the other?
     
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  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Define significant? That is the issue, not even trauma surgeons can do that.
     
  4. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yes there are people on this thread saying exactly that, the title of the thread says that, the "357sig is superior, end all to be all, best of the best, lightening bolt affect", blah, blah. I agree, more is better but ONLY if the shooter doesn't lose the ability to hit quickly. That must be factored in. Giving up a maybe for something more quantifiable seems stupid in a fight. Otherwise we would all just carry 4" 44mags.
     
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  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    While I understand the gist of your comment, consider the vocations of those two esteemed gentlemen. They provided us with wonderful commentary, humor and entertainment, to be sure. However, that doesn't mean they were actually able to define "experts", and the expertise thereof, of folks in other fields outside their own (other than for humorous purpose).

    :)
     
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  6. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    There is empirical evidence;

     
  7. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Link to this "empirical evidence"? As far as I know, no such study has ever been done on handgun wound ballistics. We have anecdotal summations of actual shootings but with so many actual facts missing in each shooting, pretty hard to draw realistic conclusions other than all handguns will need more than one COM hit to stop a fight.
    There is no way to quantify 20% more energy = blank % more ability to stop a fight. Be nice if such things were true, I would just tote a 3" 44mag. After all, first hit time is pretty much identical & rapid splits dont matter because my target is down from all that energy dump?
     
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  8. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    True there is no "accurate empirical evidence or data" available on handgun caliber effectiveness, some seem to think there is but it is just not there. Not only are there countless variables in gun fights but each LEA has it's own priorities and procedures when fights are studied and finally there are the very subjective opinions and observations of the participants reports. The more obvious differences in performance are evident but accurate data would be hard to obtain.


    The only accurate reliable comparative data we have on possible handgun performance are comparisons where variables are kept to a minimum. Think gel tests, barrier penetration tests, ammo performance specifications and weights, basic laws of physics etc.
     
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  9. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Agree. Which none of those things can be guaranteed to translate to fight stopping. Accurate hits, good bullets reaching vitals. Simple.
     
  10. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    There is no guarantee of anything involved with a gun fight.
     
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  11. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    There is empirical evidence;
     
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  12. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    AR-Tenner Quote:
    Therefore, I have taken a good number of deer over the years using my 2 handgun calibers; .45 GAP and .357 Sig.

    While I don’t feel comfortable using 9mm on deer (I also don’t own anything in that caliber), I have hunted with folks that do, so I have been able to make comparisons of the effects that these handgun calibers have on large living targets (100 to 250 pounds) with a pretty decent sample size.

    The results are that there is really no contest; the .357 Sig both produces a much larger and more severe wound, and especially incapacitates deer much more quickly than the other handgun calibers; both damage and speed of incapacitation with the .357 (when kept within reasonable ranges) is more comparable to the effects of rifles I use (.223 with 62gr Federal Fusion softpoints and even .308 with 150gr Hornady SSTs). The .45 produced a large wound (much larger than 9mm but smaller and considerably less traumatic and deep than the .357) using my handloads of a 230gr Gold Dot at 890fps, but the deer shot with .45 never go down immediately with that instant incapacitation I see with rifles and the .357.
     
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  13. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    AR-Tenner's personal observations indicate what I have stated before about the 357 Sig's performance. That being the 357 Sig produced a larger wound cavity than the .45 despite the .45 being a larger round and pretty much equal in energy. The 357 Sig also incapacitated the deer much quicker than the .45. The reason for this superior performance by the 357 Sig is it's large velocity/shock advantage and energy working together in a synergistic manner to make the 357 Sig advantage greater than it's significant energy along. The 9mm apparently came in a distant third.
     
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  14. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    I can't disagree with anything you wrote. Some of the most devastating wounds I saw were from snubby 357's. As far as agencies happy with the 147 grain 9mm, they were happy with the LRN 38's too.
     
  15. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Dave,

    You are taking one shooting from 10's of thousands of documented shootings to prove your point. It just proves that anything can fail. I don't know why you feel the need to insult me and disparage me experience at every turn, jealous?

    So you are trying to tell me that the 38 special is the equal to the 357 magnum? THAT is the Rookie mistake, THAT is what gets you laughed at. You saying that the FT Worth academy, of the US Border Patrol Academy is not serious? That just shows your ignorance. I never got laughed off any range, much less an LE range, I guess because I shoot better than most everyone there.

    I believe in what I see, what I saw, what others with similar experience saw. Interviews count, to a point, the way people react counts, to a point. I never said velocity was everything. I have always said that velocity counts as does bullet construction, bullet weight, shot placement and the ability to make followup shots. Some people here are enamored with FAST follow up shots, well many people have trouble hitting with a slow fired shot much less a quickly fired shot. I understand what some are trying to say, but, it gets lost in translation because they are such rabid 9mm fanboi's.

    You say there is now way to prove it? You are not much a student of history are you? The data is there, all you have to do is look. The 357 is significantly better than the 38 special. The best 9mm +P+ loads are just as good as the 357 mag, on the street. I saw that in the late 1980's with the 9BPLE load. I saw a guy get shot thru the pelvis with a +P 45 ACP JHP and swim the Rio Grande back to Mexico and run into the Juarez Bario, does that make a 45 ACP a failure?

    You said that handgun velocity is irrelevant. So what is there a wounding difference between a 38S&W and a 357 magnum? In your expert opinion, why can you not tell the difference between a wound caused by a 38 S&W and a 357 magnum? They are the same caliber (well actually the 38 S&W has a slightly larger groove diameter)? I mean the only difference is velocity.Why did the 36 caliber pistol round evolve from the 38 Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38 Special, 357 magnum?

    So, unless one is a "ballistics expert" their opinion is worthless and they should be laughed of the range? Wow, does your head and butt fit into the same car?
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  16. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Yes, I know. That is precisely what I was doing and even stated that in the post. It was a completely unscientific, unreliable example...with the point of comparing it to what the velocity-is-everything crowd has done.

    Not sure what I'd be jealous of, I have more experience than you do on this topic. That isn't meant as a dig, just a fact. And actually, I could turn around and say the same thing to several of you in this thread.

    See, here's the thing...I like 40 S&W. Not because I assign some magical or mystical characteristic to it, but just because I like the round. And that's enough. If someone else doesn't like it, I'm totally fine with it. I like 9mm as well and have no issue discussing it's many merits. And the fact at the end of the day is that all service calibers are about the same in terminal effectiveness. There are no service calibers that are head-n-shoulders above the others. If someone likes 357sig then like it because they like it. They shouldn't feel the need to assign psuedo-science to it for 88 pages. And that's the issue I have with some of the folks in this thread, they are doing exactly that. Being an expert on the subject matter I take issue with assinine comments like 'lightning incapacitation' as just one example. That's the biggest load of BS. Same with 'energy dump' and 'wound ballistic theory' which doesn't even qualify to be a theory...it's a discredited collection of crap. I'm just saying it the way it really is.

    You do realize the clown that came up with 'wound ballistic theory' was a member here right? He'd post his crap, get blasted for the subject matter, go off on everyone, get banned, come back under a new screen name and rinse repeat. He also had multiple accounts and would shill for himself. And it was simply a rehash of the 'kinetic energy dump' mantra of the 80's that was thoroughly discredited (same as OSS but that's a different subject).

    So a newbie comes in and sees all this nonsense and makes a bad decision. I take issue with that. Now to be clear, I also like the 357sig and 357 magnum. I've said for over 20 years here that the 357 magnum was my first personally owned firearm. So I like them because I like them. I'm not going to argue for 88 pages that they have characteristics that they don't have in real life just because I like them. I'm very good at critical thinking and I can see the positives and negatives in all the service calibers and have no issue pointing those points out.
     
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  17. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Several of you........

    You mean the unwashed masses?

    I never said the 357 Sig was greatly better than anything. I like it, like the 40 and I can respect the 9mm though I have never been a great fan.

    Where did you get your degree in "expert witness" ? Are you a Deputy or a scientist? What department? What scientific papers have you had published?

    You don't know me or my experience, how could you ever make the claim that you have superiour experience? Sounds kinda condenscending.

    You espouse the scientic theory of ballistic testing. The pseudo science of that religion is amazing. You do understand that real scientic theory needs to be proven in the field? The fact that something happens in the field and that it cannot be duplicated in the lab does not mean that it did not happen or that it does not exist, just that the "scientists" are not able to duplicate it.
     
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  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Well, tongue-in-cheek, perhaps. :)

    Once we got past the arguably dismal days of the original OSM 147gr JHP seeing duty use, we eventually started seeing some better offerings that were observed to provide noticeably better results than the 158gr LRN, 158gr LSWC and even the 158gr LSWCHP +P.

    I remember some agencies were using either 125gr JHP +P or 125gr JSP +P (remember when hollowpoint was a "nasty word" in some places among some local politicians?), and the observed results could be all over the map in the days of those older cup & core designs. Thick jackets that didn't exactly demonstrate consistency of expansion, especially at the velocities obtained in 2"-4" barrels. We still saw a goodly number of 6" service revolvers in the 80's, though, which could lend a little extra velocity that might make the difference. (Especially among taller cops, or those who were permitted to carry swivel holsters, so the longer holsters wouldn't have to dig into the seat cushions, or push up the gun belts while seated.)

    The LE market is still pretty much divided between the middleweight 124gr (especially in +P) and the 147gr loads, and proponents of both still seem to claim satisfaction with their choices.

    An example of this market flexibility was how the last CA state ammunition contract contained both 124gr +P and 147gr loads for both the Speer GDHP and Federal HST lines, so agencies wishing to order off the state contract could choose as they wished regarding company JHP design and bullet weight. All of the loads had to go through the same ammunition gel testing protocols required by the state, so they all met the minimum requirements in that regard. (I used to have a list of the ammunition testing requirements, but I misplaced it.)

    I'll be curious to see how the next state contract goes.
     
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  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yes pretty much seems an even split among LEO I know & shoot with. They report really good street results with 147gr, even though they lack "energy dump". While I am ok with them, I tend to stick to good 124gr+p. I am just old school about vel & expansion.
    Defunding the police, no need for ammo my friend. All physical interaction with criminals will be banned.:cheers:
     
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  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yeah, there's not a shortage of agencies using the newer 147gr JHP's and reporting good results.

    I think the last time I met a cop who used the 115gr +P+, it was in the mid 2000's.

    Otherwise, I've typically seen other agencies choosing (and being satisfied with) 124gr +P, 147gr and even the well respected W-W 127gr +P+. Oddly enough I've been issued, or approved to use, various 147gr and 124gr +P loads myself, as well as some previous versions of the 127gr +P+ (RA9SXTP & RA9TA).

    Come to think of it, the first boxes of RA9SXTP I ever received was from local fed agency instructor who occasionally used our range. His small bureau office issued it for a little while "before it was cool" among LE users. That was the older version that still had the black oxide Lubalox coating and brass cases.

    Then, I ordered some of what was advertised as being a suddenly canceled NYPD contract (when they decided to instead go to the 124gr +P GDHP). That load was shipped in the plain white Q-load boxes (can't remember the Q-load number). It lacked the by-then-infamous black oxide coating, had nickel cases and the primer cup pockets had a blue lacquer sealant. It was briefly available on the commercial wholesale market when Winchester washed out the canceled contract production run, and I picked up a couple cases of it for a bargain price.

    Three of the different vintages of the 127gr +P+ loads. The canceled NYPD load is on the left in the pics, with the standard RA9SXTP in the middle, and a later production RA9TA on the right right, I have some later year head stamps than the '02, too.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Sorry for the poor quality of the pic, but this is an older one I took for something else. You can see how the nose cavity and petal notching cuts were revised over time (newest in the middle in this pic). That was back after Winchester said they'd revised their SXT LE bullet to change the velocity window so it would work in the shorter barrels increasingly common in LE use for smaller detective and off-duty weapons. I could get out the older boxes and take some better pics with my newer camera, but this ought to serve for this thread.
    [​IMG]

    Like Mas, I still rather like the 127gr +P+ Winchester load in my own 9's, although I also have some 124gr +P Golden Sabre (non-bonded being my preference), 124gr +P T-Series, some 147gr HST & a couple of vintages of the 147gr RA9SXT & RA9T. I was an ammo collector when I was still able to work OT and had more disposable income to spend in those days. ;)
    [​IMG]