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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.
No we have the answer we have always had the answer, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", the irony is that it seems to be to basic for some to grasp, or "want to" grasp!
When you say "additional damage", are you referring to the visible amount of permanent crush cavity, or are you referring to differing times to incapacitation, or both?
I think the question should be how would it be possible for a round with twice the energy and 400 fps more velocity.....to "not" cause a significantly more amount of damage. This is the insanity of the less is more fan boy argument. What happens to the extra energy? Does the extra energy magically disappear when the bullet hits flesh and it instantly becomes no more than a 9mm? Eighty eight some pages of fan boys/range boys not wanting to admit that a 9mm is a 9mm.
What about when a 115 gr 357 sig round travels at 2100+ fps from a carbine? Would that do more damage than a 9mm?
Maybe we could convince tnoutdoors to do some testing?
Who needs a carbine?
I'm referring to the amount of damage in the permanent crush cavity. Incapacitation has far too many factors to ever pin down regardless of the caliber.
Well...YOU have stated that you have actual evidence. You have been asked multiple times by different members to post this evidence. Rather than posting your evidence you come back with some weird remark. What this means is that you have NO evidence (of course you don't) and simply were being intellectually dishonest in this conversation.
Yes, there are fanboys here (that we call velocity junkies). Are they the experts in ballistics? Or are they the guys that spout off gun rag dribble as gospel?
Not sure why we have to continually take you by the hand and draw pictures for you? Not sure why it's so hard for you to understand that 'energy' at handgun velocities is not a factor in wounding? Not sure why it's so hard for you to understand that ballistics experts and ammunition manufacturers don't put ANY stock in velocity at the handgun power levels in terms of additional damage/wounding mechanism?
I fixes the quote for you. You're welcome.
9mm proponent: Well, a 124+P Gold Dot produces 410 FPE, a 125gr 357sig Gold Dot produces 525 FPE. That's a difference of only 115 FPE which really is insignificant. The permanent wound cavity (as has been demonstrated) looks the same on both.
357sig velocity junkie fanboy: That 115 FPE is were all the magic happens!
9MM: What? There is no empirical evidence to even being suggesting handgun velocities produce enough energy to contribute to wounding.
357sig: ENERGY!!! More energy causes more damage!!!
9mm: Then why don't we see a larger crush cavity?
357sig: Because it causes damage that you can't see. It bruises all organs the magic bullet passes, even if they're a foot away. It creates shock waves and energy dump that ripple throughout the body causing it to physically be lifted off the ground and thrown a full 6 feet backwards!
357sig: I saw it in a movie thus it is actual evidence and must be true.
357sig: I saw it in a gun magazine next to the ad for 357sig ammo. It's called Kinetic Energy Dump, er I mean Kinetic Shock, er I mean Knock Down Power, er I mean Wound Ballistic Theory or something like that. It causes a 'lightning effect'. It causes a 'more instant incapacitation'.
9mm: Uh...yeah. Is there any medication that maybe you should be taking or perhaps have taken too much of?
357sig: E N E R G Y is my G O D.
9mm: Umm...okay, nice talking with you.
That is just it. There are an infinite number of variables. High energy rounds, no matter what they do are more reliable and consistent fight stoppers than low energy rounds.
My $0.02 though I may be way off on this:
it seems like we're only talking about soft tissue damage....which is very important but....
The 357 sig was designed for additional penetration through things like windshields etc, not necessarily more soft tissue damage with a hollowpoint (though you do get a little of that I think).
I think 9mm velocities are enough to max out what the typical 9mm HP projectile can do. The 357 sig won't necessarily make the 9mm hollowpoint expand more or penetrate deeper.... though dead is dead and they will both do a great job of that
There are a few reasons I chose 357 sig:
-Many off-the-shelf FMJ loads should readily penetrate 3a body armor that any criminal with an ebay or wish.com account can buy
-It has a ~400 fps velocity advantage over 9mm in pistol form...... but gets an absolutely massive velocity increase from a 16" carbine vs a 9mm. From a pistol 1450-1600 fps (357 sig) vs ~1200 fps (9mm) might not make a huge difference... but 2100-2200+ fps (357 sig) vs ~1350-1500+ fps (9mm) from a carbine is a world of difference
-I can reload it for the same price as 9mm
-.40 brass is everywhere.
-More reliable feeding
-The bottleneck design, itself, increases pressure vs simply cramming more powder into the case
The thing I think we're missing is that 357 sig, in terms of velocity, is operating beyond what most 9mm hollowpoint projectiles were designed for. I don't blame anyone for this, 9mm is far more prevalent than 357 sig, but I realize this for what it is and load/buy accordingly.
I'd like someone to compare 357 sig vs 9mm ballistics out of a 16" carbine against a variety of different targets including clear ballistic gel and at varying ranges (testing accuracy at range etc)... I think this would be far more enlightening as to the benefits if there are any.....
Though my expectation that a 115 grain projectile travelling at ~2200 fps vs ~1500 fps there will be quite a lot more damage/penetration at the higher velocity
You mean like a .30 Carbine?
Prove it. I'm talking about handguns. Prove it.
You are drowning in the cool aid. So what you are saying is that a 38 S&W has the same wounding ability of the 357 magnum.
I don't have to prove it. The proof is there. the debate was settled decades ago with the 357 magnum.
Yeah I guess at these velocities that's about what we're talking about.
the 357 sig hits .30 carbine velocities out of a carbine, so you're right.
Except it is .355 and not .308, for what difference that makes.....
other difference being the wide variety of handguns available for the 357 sig cartridge
Of the two of us, one is an expert witness in wound ballistics with decades of real world experience. Here's a hint...it isn't you.
You do have to prove it...you made the statement.
Of course if you want to play games...
The .357 round entered Stacy’s chest, nicked the base of her heart, her diaphragm, liver, intestine, and shattered her spleen before exiting through a tennis ball-size hole in her back. The impact caused her to take one step back, but somehow she maintained a good stance and proper grip of her weapon.
She returned fire killing her attacker. She was using a 9mm (Beretta IIRC). Thus using your own logic I have definitively proven that the 9mm is far superior to the 357 magnum. All past, present and future arguments (using your warped logic) are hereby settled now and forever. After all, the 357sig with a center of mass shot that damaged all of the internal organs listed in the article and exited the size of a tennis ball...failed to stop a woman, she didn't even fall down and after the fight walked to her home. The 9mm on the other hand instantly (like a lightning bolt) killed the attacker.
See how that works. Enjoy your koolaid.
You know, the 124gr +P and 127gr +P+ 9mm loads (@1180-1200-1250fps) are basically treading on the velocities we used to see in 2 1/2" revolvers shooting 125gr .357MAG in earlier days.
The common .357SIG 125gr loads are producing velocities we used to see in 3"-4" Magnum service revolvers (1350-1375fps looking at Winchester, Federal, Speer & Remington for .357SIG).
Not greatly far apart, all things considered. The 2 1/2" Magnum revolvers of yesteryear, mostly carried by plainclothes and off-duty cops, weren't exactly universally panned for lacking effectiveness compared to the 4" models, using the same ammunition.
Sure, there are some hotter custom .357SIG loads to be found on the market, but the big ammo makers (meaning those who commonly do a lot of business with LE/Gov) are basically putting out 125gr loads running in the 1350+fps range. Not quite the 1400-1450fps we often saw in 4" service revolvers when the .357MAG 125gr loads were chrono'd, but close.
Granted, the 147gr 9mm loads running at 990-1000fps are pretty similar to the 945-950fps 125gr .38SPL +P loads, or the 158gr sub-900fps loads in 4" revolvers. However, there are a lot of agencies using the newer 147gr loads who are pretty satisfied with them. It seems there's reportedly still just about an even split of LE users when it comes to the middleweight and heavyweight 9mm loads. (The 115gr +P+ loads are still listed in the LE catalogs of the big name makers, but you don't hear about many agencies still using them.)
I’m sure you’ve seen Mark Twain and Will Rogers’ definitions of an expert.
No one is saying that the Sig or 9mm is the be all, end all. We are simply saying that a cartridge capable of driving a given bullet faster than another cartridge or a heavier bullet at a given speed will typically do more damage assuming the bullet is optimally designed. That’s it, nothing more. More damage may not help in a gunfight but it won’t hurt as long as the damage is on the other team.
Yes they are. They are saying that for 88 pages.
And some of the people saying this have claimed to have absolute proof that this is correct. Still waiting for the proof. You can assume that it causes more damage. You can assume that it causes...what was the phrase used, Ah..lighting incapacitation. But all you can do is assume. It is an unproveable assumption.
And since I have proven conclusively that a 357 (magnum in this case) failed to produce 'lightning incapacitation' and in fact caused massive internal injuries and a horrendous exit wound yet was so inadequate the woman didn't even fall down and walked away from the shooting after having killed the attacker with a 9mm...the 9mm is superior in every conceivable way. Now, of course that is flawed logic but I'm using it as an example to show the flawed logic in the velocity junkies argument. Let's take a look at that flawed logic once again for grins;
So because the caliber was invented...it somehow proves that it is superior to some other service caliber. That is of course BS and utter rookie nonsense that would get you laughed off the range at any serious LE academy. And he (hopefully) knows it's BS but it seems to be all he has.
So again, 357 magnum failed to stop a woman who in turn kills attacker with a 9mm thus the 9mm is superior to the 357 magnum. Even though it's flawed logic, it is a better argument than 'lightning incapacitation' or 'energy dump' or 'magic fairy dust sprinkled on the bullet' or an of their other arguments. And why is it a better argument? Because that is an actual, documented real world shooting. It didn't come out of a gun rag, discredited theory, silly buzz phrase or the wishful thinking of someone enamored with velocity.
Now to be clear, it's still a silly argument and is in no way, shape or form actual proof of the superiority of one service caliber vs. another. It is for demonstrational purposes to show the complete fallacy in the 'velocity is everything' crowd.
Again, no. That may be your position, but it is not the position of the more rabid members here. Remember...ENERGY and LIGHTNING are the magic ingredients.