357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Dont fall onto the thought that your attacker will be impressed by being shot, with any service caliber. 1st failures are so numerous, many times the victim or attacker dont realize they are even hit. Its why the one shot stop is also so rare as to be a myth. Assume you will need to land multiple good hits to win your fight, contact to 15-20y. Train & practice that way. I dont know any instructor that teaches draw & fire one shot then evaluate. Its double taps, controlled pairs or hammers, never a single shot.
     
  2. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Yes agree and that is even more important because in most SD situations you are..... reacting to an attack or threat that has already begun. This means you are playing catch up in an attack which may or may not have already wounded you or put you at a disadvantage. This makes a strong effective response even more important, or why my CC is most often a G32 or G33 loaded with HST.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020

  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Wounded, sure, possible, how fast can you get good hits strong or weak hand with your 357sig? Have you ever actually put it to the test? Power is great, any edge in a fight is good, no matter how small, but power that you cant utilize is useless.
     
  4. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Yes it is indeed possible that a hit to the dominate arm or hand would be disabling for that limb. That's why you should practice using the weak hand as well as the strong to ensure you can effectively stay in a fight.
     
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  5. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Not what I asked rail. Can YOU effectively hit with your 357sig strong or weak hand to say a modest 21ft? Oh yes, & quickly. Slow fire Target shooting in a gunfight at 21ft will likely be terminal. If not, more ptactice or think about less recoil being helpful.
     
  6. GunsNweights87

    GunsNweights87

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    No 3 to center mass it’s a stress drill not from concealment but from my drop leg holster with rmr


    Sent from my iPhone using Glock Talk
     
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  7. GunsNweights87

    GunsNweights87

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    If you have strong grip strength 9mm vs 357 sig is not a difference that will hinder your accuracy and cadence! Not only should you practice you speed drills but you forearm strength with weight training


    Sent from my iPhone using Glock Talk
     
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  8. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    True, accuracy is about the person not the caliber. That's why I talk about the caliber on "Caliber Corner" not the person. At least that is what the moderators encourage us to do.
     
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  9. quantico

    quantico 1911 lover Millennium Member

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    People that love 9mm have no ability to see that it is an acceptable round for defense.. but no more. .380 is a great example of similar but lower powered than even 9mm. Some people carry .380 and say they are so much faster than they could shoot 9mm.. so it must be better.

    Funny thing is that the typical .380 or 9mm pistol is getting smaller and lighter with less and less capacity..

    Why the 9mm crowd does not go for a decent service full sized handgun tells me its all about convenience and whats easy. And yes its easier to train with a gun with less recoil.. but its harder to carry around..

    I will stick to more powerful cartridges. And guns with more barrel length... barrel length can also make more velocity if the ammo is loaded to do it.

    357 sig is excellent.. 10mm is excellent.. I would choose them over 9mm if I care about stopping a threat more quickly and harshly..

    My bullet performance of weight times velocity will outperform theirs.. its pretty easy math and such..
     
  10. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Strange how some choose to bring up training when the thread has nothing to do with training. There is a Tactics and Training forum for that.

    This thread is about 357SIG on its own merit. Why all the crushed feelings from 9mm fan boys? Interesting we don't see those in favor of 40S&W or 45 Auto throwing a fit.

    There is no question more energy dispensed on target, assuming penetration depth into the vitals, will wound and incapacitate more efficiently than less on average. This is exactly the reason, all other things being equal, hollow points outperform FMJ loads overall.

    When shot placement, penetration depth, and bullet diameter are equal, more energy means a larger temporary cavity. A larger temporary cavity means a better chance of damaging non elastic tissues (including nerves) beyond the permanent crush cavity. This is a big reason why more kinetic energy can have a much better chance toward quicker incapacitation on average than less kinetic energy.

    That's why most have come to the factual understanding that +p or +p+ 9mm ammunition will stop adversaries quicker on average than lower energy loads. And similarly why 357SIG and 357MAG are better at stopping adversaries quicker on average than the hottest 9mm loads.

    Here's a fun fact many don't realize; A temporary cavity that is twice the diameter of another occupies a volume that is 4 times greater!

    :cheers:
     
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  11. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Now that you mention it, I have never thought about it that way. The natural assumption should be that a 357 Sig with 20% more energy would produce a wound cavity 20% larger. However in gel tests the PWC is twice the diameter of a 9mm PWC and 50% longer. My estimation is this equates to a PWC volume..... 3 times larger than a 9mm in an apples to apples comparison.


    I have stated before that the 357 Sig has 20% more energy PLUS 10% more velocity shock which together add up a measurable 30% advantage over the 124gr 9mm. I believe these two factors complement each other making the total effect greater than the 30% sum of the two. This would help explain how a 300% larger wound cavity volume could be created by a bullet with a 30% ballistic advantage. As I have stated before there is more to ballistic performance than what can be measured by a ruler, this is a good example.
     
  12. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I love the logic. So better, sure, how much better? Not quantifiable. WHy I will always look for an edge in a fight, but one edge cant compromise another like say faster accurate hits.
    So yes it does come down to skill & ability. If the slightly better caliber causes the shooter to miss or hit poorly, well then it really doesnt matter about the ME does it. Bullet is where its at, not caliber in service guns. So skill level first, then bullet design with a minimal ME to get the bullet to work.
     
  13. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    +1
     
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  14. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Not surprisingly you insist on covering tactics and training. No, skill and ability are NOT quantifiable in a self defense scenario, especially a startling one. Skill and ability are only quantifiable in non self defense scenarios when going up against inanimate objects that can't have the intention of harming you.

    Beyond that I applaud you for understanding the 357SIG trumps 9mm.:highfive:
     
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  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    And not surprisingly you & a few others choose to ignore actual gunfight stats. Yes the 357sig is slightly better, but means nothng if you can't hit with it. Ignoring skill set when chosing a caliber & platform is just ignorant & potentially dangerous to you & innocents you hit when you miss. I see it every weekend, every ccw class. People shootng guns that cant hit with because its "better" than a 9mm. If you arent willing to bring your skill level up, you need to drop to a platform you can hit with.
    There is nothing I dont shoot well enough that I wouldnt carry it. I shoot a 40, 357sig, 45 better than most can shoot their full size 9. What I & other professionals have learned, I shoot the 9 better still & more rds on hand. In combat, never a terrible idea to be able to actually hit with your chosen platform. I carry all the service calibers in some platform. I'll take any small advantage in a fight as long as it doesn't compromise my accuracy at speed. No magic calibers or bullets, that is for those living the fantasy of energy dump.
     
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  16. Scott1970

    Scott1970

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    From what I've seen, it's either your time to die or it ain't regardless of caliber and location of impact. That's absurdly simplistic, but it best explains some of the shootings I've attended.
     
  17. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Please excuse me for breaking down your well reasoned post, but sometimes it's easier to address particular points of interest so they can be addressed as points. :)

    Yep. But sometimes when the Caliber forum is used to extol the purported "ballistic superiority" of some caliber, it's not unusual to hear some enthusiasts and aficionados express their admiration in such a way they they imply the ballistic "superiority" discounts or mitigates the need for other considerations, like training and tactics.

    Yes, but it's when we start "assuming" the optimal and best conditions to be the outcome that will always result that may distract us from all other conditions. ;)

    When you're only considering a static (unmoving) and homogeneous test medium, sure.

    However, the varying densities of various tissues, organs and structures in actual anatomy can present unpredictable conditions. This may include the potential for having intervening limbs get in the way of reaching torso anatomy (think deflection along/off bony structures), or objects carried on the person (belt buckles worn, pocket clutter, etc). Then there's the positioning of the actual anatomy being being presented as it's struck (think peripheral placement and shallow, glancing "hits"). TMC's (in their perfect lab form) may be prevented from forming, or obstructed before they can get going, by anatomical structures or intermediate objects in actual conditions.

    In gel block mediums, yes, but nowadays we have both carefully prepared organic gel and different "synthetic" gel block mediums being used by various labs, companies and interested individuals. What if the desire to achieve repeatedly consistent results across the board of all "testing" may not be possible? What if the different mediums and "testing" conditions may have resulted in the potential for obtaining, interpreting and understanding the "results" to become a bit less controlled than in the early days of the FBI's 8 testing protocols, and the work of the IWBA (with the addition of the 4LD test protocol)?

    I used to be serious Magnum caliber enthusiast. .38SPL, even in the hotter derivations of the then-new +P loadings, were "training wheels" for beginning handgunners (in my jaundiced perspective :) ). I looked at the hottest loads available in either factory loads or handloading of .357MAG to be more or less at the highest end of the medium power handgun caliber envelope created by the .38SPL. A great step forward for large frame, and then medium frame, service revolvers ... for the folks who could handle a bit more recoil than the .38SPL, but couldn't deal with .44MAG.

    I didn't think of a handgun caliber capable of being considered a "serious" caliber, for ballistic power and performance, until the .44MAG, or a Ruger-Only handloaded .45Colt, was being discussed.

    The .41MAG? I liked it, and like handloading for it. Fun caliber. It was better than the .357MAG in some respects (and it's caliber started with a "4" :) ), but even boosted to upper level handloads it was still more or less approaching 3/4's "power" of a basic .44MAG standard load, on a good day. It did, however, achieve that with maybe only 2/3's of the recoil and muzzle torque, so that was decent trade-off. Nice accuracy with the right loads, too, and my father and I liked to use it for some mountain country long distance handgunning (being fans of Elmer Keith). Then, of course, the .41Police load came about (for reduced recoil in police service loads), and now we were getting back even closer to the "medium-powered" .357MAG, although still with a bit heavier bullet weight and a wider meplat.

    10mm? Even when it was increased a bit from the original "power" envisioned by Cooper, it was still more or less treading the ground of the lower level .41MAG loads, and was closer in range in some respects to the medium-caliber .357MAG, than the .41MAG. (Nowadays the custom makers are producing some heavier bullet weight options, and the 10mm is perhaps evolving a bit.)

    This is why some of us who were around for the Magnum revolver days kinda looked at the packaging of the .355 9mm bullet stuffed into a necked .40 case and called a .357SIG as an interesting development, but only from the respect of it being pushed to reportedly emulate one of the lighter .357MAG loads, meaning the 125gr JHP.

    I always thought they ought to have explored the 147gr bullet weight more, as when the heyday of the .357MAG was beginning to decline, and the 125gr bandwagon was busy attracting attention, it was arguably the 140gr & 145gr JHP loads that were really coming into their own. (Discounting the excellent, and HOT, CCI 140gr .357MAG in the early 80's, which was a favorite of mine at the time.)

    I heard this promoted by a retired fed DOD agent who used to investigate shootings in sensitive places. In one of the classes he taught for us (we hosted him), while he was showing us a morgue x-ray of a man killed with a 125gr .357MAG JHP torso wound, he discussed how he'd seen that the 140gr .357MAG had been beginning to demonstrate even "better" effects. (Rem offered their 140gr SJHP at that time, and W-W had their excellent 145gr STHP.) It was the opinion of that fellow that if the days of the service revolver had lasted a few years longer, we'd likely have seen the 140/145gr .357MAG loads surpass the 125gr loads when it came to actual OIS studies. He said that from what he'd seen in his classified background, the "middleweight" 140/145gr .357MAG hadn't had time to become widely used and fully appreciated as a service load. Maybe so. After all, the same thing had happened in LE circles when the 125gr JHP began replacing the favored 110gr JHP in .357MAG (remember the LEAA Computer Man study in the 70's?), even though the 110gr +P+ load tried to serve the same role for the agencies stuck using .38SPL.

    When I used to work a rural beat area that was anywhere from 30-60 minutes from any cover (in good weather), I used to carry a couple speedloaders of a neat Norma .357MAG load. I carried it with the idea in mind of needing a different capability of defeating any vehicle barriers (although I also carried 25 extra rounds of 12GA slugs, if I was able to get to my 870). The Norma load was a 158gr FMJ truncated cone SWC. I never took one apart to see if it was a TMJ, or had exposed lead at the base, and the boxes are long gone.

    The thing that interested me in it as a limited purpose option was the testing that showed it could push its 158gr bullet to 1450fps. In other words, it could duplicate the velocity of the better 125gr JHP loads, but with the punch of the heavier 158gr FMJ bullet. I never had the need to shoot one outside of our range, but the I did eventually burn up all of the boxes. It produced some brisk and hefty recoil and muzzle whip, as you might expect. It eventually disappeared from the shelves of any of the gun stores I could find, and I only have a single one of those original speedloaders left loaded with the rounds. Nostalgia. ;)

    Nice talking with you. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
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  18. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    As we all know, ammo prices are off the chain. However, the occasional decent to good deal comes along from folks not interested in gouging. To this end I picked up, in 357sig, a box of the Sig V-Crown and a couple boxes of PDX1. Took a look at Lucky Gunners testing and was a bit surprised to see both loads were overall better than the GD offering. Found that interesting.
     
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  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yeah, changing brands of JHP designs can sometimes surprise us ... as can changing production lots within the same brand/design now and again. Always something to wonder about and ponder upon. ;)

    I used to tell the younger instructors to try and avoid getting all wrapped up around the axle by losing themselves in the rabbit holes of the constantly evolving JHP designs (many revisions of which aren't even elaborated upon by the engineers to the marketing or sales reps ;) ).

    I used to suggest they use what he have on hand, because we don't have any control over the contract bids, or the distributor inventories or dealer pipelines. Don't fill the heads of our line staff shooters with ammunition advertising and claimed nuances over which neither we, nor they, have any control.

    Instead, worry about keeping everyone up to date on policy and procedures, new laws and case law decisions, and forever using good judgment.

    It's a JHP bullet. Put it where it needs to go (and is lawful, reasonable, appropriate and within policy, etc.) Whatever you fire MUST hit the intended threat to hope to do you any good, because misses with even the "wonder bullet du joir" (in someone's opinion) aren't going to solve your immediate problem, and will quite probably cause you other significant problems.
     
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  20. 4949shooter

    4949shooter

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    Did you ever have changes on jacket hollowpoint designs cause feed malfunctions?

    We did with certain ammo in AR's, but I never it saw in handguns.