357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Fred, with all due respect you are trying to prove an un-provable opinion. The 38 special was not, is not and will never be as effective as the 357 magnum. It has to do with the fact that the 357 has 2X the energy. We may not be able to quantify what that energy does, but to totally discount it is wrong.

    I am not gonna run a 357 mag LRN, that is ludicrous. To be objective you must use the same bullet, that is why the 38/357 comparison is so valid, compare the same bullet only change velocity. You have resorted to silly arguments. On the street the 380 ACP seems to work as good a 38 snubbies, at least what I saw.

    Why Stacy stayed in the fight? Easy, there are no magic bullets and one shot stop is a metric of measurement, not a tactic. Same reason Platte stayed in the fight as long as he did with a non survivable wound. Had Stacy's roommate not came to here aid, she probably would have died.
     
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  2. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    The difference in recoil impulse between the 357 sig and 9mm +P or +P+ is a mouse fart. If people have their shooting ability negatively impacted they need to shoot more. By the same token, split times mean nothing on the street. I like to use it to show that they are peddling BS, when my split times are identical between maggies and specials.
     
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  3. s&wfan

    s&wfan

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    Penetrates car door/seats/windshields and maintains energy. I think it's that simple.
     
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  4. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    Yes sir, I agree. I think recoil difference and especially its impact on split times is being exaggerated. I just wanted to play the same game, because why not at this point. I think it's really a case of grasping at straws, which I think is also supported by people who claim to be all about data repeatedly making an unsubstantiated claim. Anyway, given what apparently passes for "data" here, they might as well.
     
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  5. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    One would think...that's what I see as it's main strength as well. You might want to change that "maintains energy" to something like "maintains ability to expand", otherwise they are going to mention "magic bullets" again, haha. Energy doesn't exist, you know, it's just velocity and mass. :D
     
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  6. fredj338

    fredj338

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  7. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Ok lets try sgain. Sure pressure has a relationship to vel, never said it sis t. Your claim is you could load the 357sig to offer less recoil than a 9 with greater performance, just not so without context.
    If you claim faster hits dont matter then I suspect you dont shoot or train tomdo that. Its pretty easy to see poor hits & even misses handing a less skilled shooter more recoil, & then put them on the clock. Is 1/2 sec diff in good hits significant, I think it is. If it takes the bad guy 1sec to get his 2nd shot off & I have gotten 2 or even 3 hits, what are his odds of even landing that shot? Generally when I hear splits between hots dont matter, it comes from someone who is a flat range target shooter. To end this. I never said or will say more energy with a good bullet doesnt matter. It just doesnt matter as much as a very few think. All based on field exp & studying gunfights. You realize pretty quickly, good hits with good bullets are what matter. There is a minimum energy level to get the bullet to expand & enough mass to penetrate. Weight is caliber soecific but ME seems to be around 300-350ft#.
     
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  8. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Again never said equal, but wrong bullet in 357 anything good bullet on 38sp, yeah I could be choosing 38sp+p. I am not trying to be subjective, i am pushing back on the notion of energy is the stopper. At least you admit no magic bullet, energy dump. Pointy sticks kill without medical attention. We are talking the myth of enetgy dump stopping a fight & the many cases like officer Lim proves energy dump is a myth. Gunfight stats show that everything fails, even rifle & 12ga, so energy dump is a myth. My only point.
     
  9. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    That's honestly kind of a joke argument, even though it's true. It would not make sense to do that...because a little gentler recoil just doesn't matter much.

    Define the question is HOW MUCH faster, that's the only way to determine if it's likely to matter. This slower rate of fire is an argument we've seen a lot here with no proof or quantification. The more substantial the slow down, the more likely it is to matter in a real-world scenario. The more likely it is to impact a real-world scenario, the more that should factor into caliber choice.

    Yes, if you shoot an order of magnitude faster than your opponent that is very significant. If you shoot twice as slow with a more powerful round then you should step it back to something weaker. I agree that a half-second increase in split times would be significant, to the point that it would be a poor choice. I just don't think that's often the case, especially if one can already shoot 9mm fine. To an absolute novice? Sure, maybe. I also don't think one has to shoot 10k rounds of 357 a year to be proficient. Obviously more training is always better though. Another factor is the likelihood of shooting other calibers while you might choose 357sig for defense. If you train often with 9mm, you are not going to have to train as much with 357 to stay or become proficient with that caliber. Heck, you could even train with fairly hot 9mm to really get a similar experience. In something like a glock, all you need is a barrel/mag change and you are even using the same gun.

    Nothing works by itself, you need shot placement, decent speed, bullet design and sufficient energy to be effective. I just do not find the added recoil of more powerful rounds very detrimental to my ability to land shots quickly. I'm sure it would show on an actual timer, but it's not significant. In fairness, I have not shot 357sig, but I have shot 40. Yes, I understand your diameter X penetration view of wounding. I don't think it tells the whole story and I don't think most people look at a gell block and disregard the larger cavity that occurs right where the HP opens up. It actually seems to get a decent amount of attention in gel tests, for good reason. It's a factor in wounding the same way the exact same type of tearing is a factor in rifle rounds, just generally to a lesser extent. Anyway, we've done what we can.

    Slightly off-topic, but during my travels I came across 356 TSW. I knew about it, but not really how powerful it was. More powerful than 357sig and apparently works in 9mm mags, so 9mm capacity. Ammo is almost non-existent and expensive. 9x21 is similar and only requires the chamber to be reamed IIRC.
     
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  10. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Most likely just another impoverished argument thrown out to see if he could get away with it. Just another day on Caliber Corner.
     
  11. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    The difference "isn't really measurable"? I am going to take that as you saying the 9mm round for round is equal to the 357 Mag. Also you aren't going to land two 9mm shots for one 357 Sig round. The time difference between these two calibers even shooting multiple shots is only a fraction of a second. Considering incapacitation time in a gun fight is around 15 seconds even with a direct hit to the heart, a few fractions of a second is nothing.

    If you are concerned with a time advantage remember the 357s bullets deliver their superior energy instantly with the first shot no timer needed and every shot there after. Which means the 9mm is not only weaker but also slower to deliver the goods.
     
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  12. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Yes we can see you are being subjective, you are putting the "wrong bullet" in a 357 and a good bullet in a 38 Special. The 357's wrong bullet such as a FMJ or a HP that fails to expand properly will just pass through the body and so will......NOT TRANSFER IT"S ENERGY TO FLESH PROPERLY as it would if it was using a "good bullet". Energy will not be effective if it isn't properly used and applied. The people at Federal ammo understand this and so design their HST ammo (considered the best for SD) to penetrate no more than 15 inches allowing it to dump it's energy quickly and effectively.


    You might want to take that "wrong ammo" to the range with you, it doesn't matter what you shoot there and you only need enough energy to punch holes in paper. After all range targets don't shoot back!
     
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  13. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    I am not a scientist, I am an old street cop. I don't care what anyone calls it. I just know that a 357 magnum with a quality JHP outperforms the 38 Special with the same or similar bullet every time. I think I also mentioned that one thing that saved Stacy was the bullet used. Stacy was shot with a Winchester 110 grn JHP, which due to its construction stayed together. Had she been shot with a Remington 110 grn SJHP bullet in the exact same spot , at the exact same angle she would have likely died immediately. The Remington SJHP is known for its scalloped tip and thin jacked and they fragment significantly at magnum velocities. I have seen what it does first hand.

    The definition of energy is the ability to do work. Of course energy alone does nothing, like the suns rays thru space. The 38 Special has always and will always be a marginal SD cartridge.

    Her shooting proves nothing about "energy dump" or any other scientific hypothesis.
     
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  14. fredj338

    fredj338

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    We do not dsagree, with good bullets the 357mag is a better fight stopper, just not twice as good or 3x as good. My entire itch is this BS about energy dump.
    Regardless of the bullet, Lim Was hit in the chest with over 500ft# of energy. She didnt drop, didnt stop her defensive resoonse. This one shooting proves, many others too, the bullet & placement is the driver, the deciding factor. She finished her fight with a lowely 9mm. So much for energy dump. Sure she would have died, same as if stabbed wirh a zero ME knife without med care.
    I will always push back on simplistic, naive statements like energy dump & lightening bolt affects, when shooting ability is ignored. Some people want to believe there is some massive diff in a caliber performance because you add 100ft# of energy. Its just not true. Better, sure, if delivered with speed & accuracy, but superiority comes from the bullet & its rapid placement. 9mm+p, 40, 45, all so close with good bullets, pretty much the same. The 357sig offers a bit more energy, so? Still no measurable affect on target, still fails about 35% of the time to deliver an immediate stop. I am sure in your career there were plenty of failures reported with the mighty 357mag. A really good round, like the 357sig, but not magic, not by a mile.
     
  15. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    She was using +P 9mm. on the street it works about as well as the 357 mag. I would not call that lowly. Having seen the results on the street I would say the 357 is 2X as good as the 38 Special. The only failure that comes to mind with the 357 was Mark Coates, and there is some confusion that he might have actually been using +P 38 ammo as it was during the time period with the firing pin bushing problem with the 686.

    All the people I saw shot or that had been shot with a 357 were out of the fight NOW, everyone I saw hit more than once was DRT.
     
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  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Lowely is tpunge & cheek for the energy dump crowd. It still only makes about 400ft# but plenty with a good bullet in the right place, obviously, she won. We agree, good 9mm +p is almost as good as 357sig against angry people.
    Fwiw, plenty of failures if you count one shotbstops. Data shows it. This isnt definitive but relevant imo. We dont inow what ammo so it can be greatly skewed if a lot of those were fmj. What I get out of it, anything under 9mm sucks, but nothing is magic. You want to be able to land multiple good hits. If any of the data collected is valid on its face, the 357 is about 10% more effective based on number of non stops, one shot stops & number of rds.
    https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
     
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  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Regardless of the bullet! Are you serious, with a FMJ or HP that doesn't expand properly there is no tissue damage OR energy dump. Energy can only be used when it is....... transferred to the body not when it zips out the other side wasting the energy. You seriously need to get over this straw man argument that you pull up constantly about round nose and bad bullets in a 357. Have you ever heard about an apples to apples comparison, you know what they call a VALID comparison.
     
  18. fredj338

    fredj338

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    So now you believe energy dump is BS. Finally, thx rail.
     
  19. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Well dude you need to buy some cream for that itch or get over it because unless you can rewrite the laws of physics (which by the way aren't BS) the extra energy and velocity of the 357s isn't going away, like or not. An average of 30% more energy for the Sig and 40% more for the magnum. More flesh destructing, energy dumping, barrier penetrating, hydroshocking energy delivered by good modern HST and Gold Dot bullets is here to stay and out performs the 9mm.
     
  20. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Miss quoting again straw man!