357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Oh you & I agree, energy dump doesnt exist & is not magic. If all that was required was land 500ft# once on target, well everyone would carry a 357. Gunfights have proven that ME only matters in making the bullet work. Much of that work is done deforming the bullet. Thete is no direct correlation between energy & a bullets ability to stop. You can computer model it all day but it means nothing to the individual target in the fight.
    Accuracy at speed with enough energy to deform the bullet & reach vitals. That simple. There is no additional psychological affect, as some would claim, being shot is being shot. So it always comes down to what you can hit with quickly. If your first shot fails to stop, you now need more accurate hits. If you cant deliver that, then you are likely to fail against your attacker, regardless of what he is armed with.
    I have moved more than one shooter off their 40 or 45 compact because their hit ratio at speed sucks. Since good bullets with good hits fast is really all that matters, one needs to honestly evaluate their skill set vs their weapon/caliber choice. Merely carrying something bigger than a 9mm & believing you are good to go is just beyond foolish. Btw, lesser calibers fail more often because they lack mass & enough vel to exoand the bullet & drive it deep to vitals.
    124/9mm +p, 40, 45, all About 400ft#. So does anyone really believe adding 100ft# matters? I think not & gunfight stats say no it doesnt either. That is likely where some will say they are all the same. In a way, true, but it always comes down to the bullet. If my choice were 44mag with solid vs 9mm+p w/ 124gr jhp against people, I am choosing 9mm all day.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
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  2. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    Wait, you are half right. It does exist but it's not magic. If it didn't exist then rifle rounds would wound the same as handgun rounds. They don't because they have much more energy than handgun rounds. Energy itself does not mean a round will be effective, it's just potential effectiveness. Are round with a crap ton of energy that is tiny and zips right through the target has energy but doe not DELIVER it on target. Again, it's energy TRANSFER that does damage. Go back and look at the image I posted in my last reply. Notice that the wound cavity, the tears, correspond best with what statistic about the loads? Do the fasted loads to the most damage? No, because 40 and 45 do more damage than 9mm. The results line up PERFECTLY with muzzle energy differences because these are well-designed hollowpoints the deliver energy effectively.

    Right, and we would not care where we hit the target so long as all the energy was dumped. IDK where you got this idea from to be honest, it seems to either have come from your own ming or arguments you have seen before? It is a wounding factor, it increases temporary and permanent stretch cavities. Also, it determines how bullets perform generally. More energy, more work done to the target.

    You seem to think that the bullet bending is force just on the bullet, almost as if it's wasted energy. You do understand that for the bullet to bend, that means it is exerting force on the flesh right? The bullet has to bend against something and in this case it bends against the pressure it builds up between bullet and flesh. Significant pressure I'm sure we agree, and it happens very quickly.

    That is not all that matters, but that is what matters most in most cases. If you can't penetrate a barrier and do effective damage then accuracy might be better traded for power. If your round is less effective, it might be better traded for power. It's always a balance right? Otherwise "speed" people would be carrying 22 or something equivalent and "power" people would be carrying .500 S&W. It seems to be that most 9mm folks (not you) are dead set that anything more powerful is a waste and that "ALL handguns same, lol", which is honestly hilarious. I think 9mm is an effective SD round and I would not have an issue carrying it, but it's not the most effective per shot obviously. Still, for some people, it is the right balance. For others, depending on many factors, it is not. I would say the same thing about every round really, although I do have my favorites.

    We agree here, if you can not quickly get rounds on target because of recoil then you need a lighter recoiling round/load. However, is a. .180 vs .200 split is not likely going to make a difference in the real world. I would not personally choose .380 over 9mm for a .02 split difference. It's all a balance and there is really no correct answer, we each choose for ourselves AND for our situations. The answer to the thread title is that 357 sig is one of the more powerful handgun rounds, but it's the ability to stop can't be calculated by power alone. Assuming a quality load, good shot placement and good bullet design it will have more effect on target, it will do more work. I might allow for a slightly larger margin of error due to a larger wound cavity as well, but that's not something you want to rely on. If one shoots it well then I think it's a good choice, one of the best. IF. Your description of bullets failing because they "lack mass & enough vel" sure sounds like a funny way of saying energy to me. :D Why not just say energy? Becuase it's not just velocity and it's not just mass, it's a calculation of both that is the best predictor of this. That's energy, period.

    See, to me you are looking at it wrong. Would you actively give up 100ft# of energy and for what? Even by your standard of penetration x diameter, 45 is certainly better. You also claim they are "all About 400ft#" but that's an over simplification. In most loadings, there is a difference. Looking at HSTs, 9mm +p is 396ft#, .40 is 408ft#, .45 +p is 461ft#, 357sig is 513ft#. You can see that 45 has about a 70ft# advantage. What's interesting about 45 is that it has this advantage due to a wider bullet. If you look at the picture I posted in my last post, the 45 and the 124gr 9mm were within 10#ft of each other. That means recoil should be about the same, btw. That's like a reduced recoil load in 45. There will be some difference in recoil characteristics, of course, but most people find 45 to be less snappy. The recoil curve is less abrupt because it's lower pressure. Looking at the image and imagine what would look like with a 70#ft difference. In the image there is about a 100#ft difference between the 124 9mm +p and the 357sig. That should be a simple way to see what energy alone does, since they are the same caliber....and again, all of this is ignoring barrier penetration. The 357 sig could lose 100#ft in a barrier and perform as well as 9mm. The 9mm would then perform like a 380 or worse.

    When we actually push the limits of both calibers regarding energy, the differences are greater. The most powerful 9mm Xtreme Defender 480#ft. That's a +p+ round which means it's not exactly ow recoil. Pressure for 9mm +p+ is about 44k psi. Standard pressure for 357 sig is 40k psi. I would love to see loads at these pressures compared for recoil and performance. Bottle neck rounds are just inherently more efficient. Heres a quote "Even the extremely hot 9mm +P+ with the same bullet weight runs about 150 feet per second slower than just the standard .357 SIG load." I BET you that standard pressure 357 sig load recoils less and performs better. That would really counter the recoil argument. Anyway, back to Xtreme Defender ammo, the rating is 636#ft for the 65 grain. That's 1.325 times as powerful, 156#ft difference when compared to a high recoil +p+ 9mm. Now that I've really thought this out, I think the 357 sig is better even at the same recoil levels. Even loaded at 40k PSI it outperforms 9mm at the same PSI by a considerable amount. The only reason to choose 9mm over 357 sig is price, availability and capacity. Those are legitimate reasons for some. I wish 9mm win mag was a thing still, but is pretty high pressure.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020

  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Semantics maybe. Enerhy matter in the context of the bullet. RNFMJ will generally cause little damage, smooth round holes regardless of caliber & energy. Lots of energy, littke transfer.
    Yes a lot of energy is used to deform the bullet. Energy is never wasted or lost but to deny that a bunch is used to deform the bullet is noypt understabding physics. The increased tissue crush s not coming directly from the energy. If so RNFMJ would be fine. No the tissue crush comes from smashing the large frontal dia bullet thru tissue. Why a larger dia os desirable with as much vel as needed to continue momentum. My example of std service caliber rds being all about 400# is valid. Thinking even 100ft# matters is just crunchng numbers. Sp 400ft# is marginal but 500# is magic, please.
    ON meat target, the diff in the wound will always be the bullet. It is why smaller caliber/lower vel rds under 9mm are less effective, they dont reach the large frontal area desired to crush tissue, like 50cal +, or have the mass/vel to reach vitals. Despite what a few very naive people belive, if you dont hit vitals or remove limbs, the fight is very likely to continue. Merely slapping a larger are of flesh, while potentially painful, not a fight stopper. CNS, skeleton or vitals, fight stopper. Temp cav in handguns is icing, helpful in wounding but its not the cake. I dont dismiss it but it isnt the stopper.
    Yes, balance is what we seek. Can I hit repeatedly with enough bullet & vel to reach vitals. If I cant, I need more practice or less gun. Yet still, if I can deliver 2 body & 1 head in 2sec with a good 9 & the bad guy can just get one com hit with his mighty 357 in the same time, I likely survive that with medical care, he does not. Another example for those they claim split times dont matter. If you attacked by multiple attackers, your ability to transition & land good hits is going to matter. Your target is likely moving & the faster you can place the hit, the more likely it lands where you want.
    So does speed wity accuracy matter, sure it does, dentying that is not understanding dynamics in a gunfight. It is why even though a shooter that can do that with more gun, can do it faster still with a 9mm+p. Especially for those not willing to commit to the practice to,learn to manage recoil. Few are willing to put up 10k rds a year of 357sig. About what it would take to become more than comoetent with the 357sig.
     
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  4. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    You’re backing up pretty fast.
    You definitely misquoted him the first time stating: “The guys in you(r) video claimed that there is no way a 44 magnum might produce a different outcome than a 9mm...” post 1312. Not what you said.
    Also, you keep stating 9mm fans claim all the service calibers are identical or exactly the same. Can you show me just one example of that actually happening?
    I am issued a .40 and cc a G-19. I like them both just fine. I also have been doing this long enough to know that with the service calibers we’re just poking holes; there’s no “magic bullet”.
    Unlike some, I believe my training, shot placement, and speed are so much more important than what caliber I’m using. Some believe they can substitute a round with more energy for training. I just happen to disagree.
    No one here isn’t recognizing the fact the sig load has more energy, what some of us are saying is “So what?” In repeatable scientific studies, and real-world civilian and OIS shootings data, the only thing the sig round seems to get you is less capacity and more muzzle-blast and recoil. If you prefer that over more rounds and faster follow-up shots, have at it!
    Dr. Gary Roberts, a few more, and I often ask what’s the point of this cartridge?
    The point was for sig to separate guys that believe in magical bullets from their money. And it seems to be working on fewer and fewer all the time.


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  5. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Here ya go buddy:


    View: https://youtu.be/nycYxb-zNwc



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  6. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    I guess I need to make some things simpler. It's like you haven;t read a single thin I posted. Obviously RNFMJ does not do much damage because at no point in the path of the bullet is it transferring a lot of energy into flesh. Also, it will generally exit the target which means much of the energy is wasted on something other than the target. I have stated this plainly before but I will do it again, many factors are involved but concerning energy it's a matter of the rate of energy transfer that determines wounding. This is why more damage is done where the HP round first opens than at the end of it's travel. The bullet, although fully expanded, is transferring less energy towards the end. I hope that is simple enough. It's observable.

    Not magical, that's your straw man. It's just that about 25% more force is exerted on the target, assuming the bullet does not exit. No magic numbers, stop making that up.

    No one you are currently talking to is saying you don't need to hit vital organs, so let's drop that nonsense. I do understand that some ammo can't even reach the required depth needed. Some can do it with FMJ but that does not do much damage. OF COURSE the bullet is of prime importance. I would generally take 9mm HP before a 357 RNFMJ. HOWEVER, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a 357 HP is going to do more damage to a target than a 9mm. It's really very simple, we are talking about a single variable here, but for some reason people keep inserting irrelevant issues. Arguing that a crappy bullet design is bad for ballistics is useless, I don't know why it's even brought up. How does a HP bullet do damage on a target? ENEGRY TRANSFER. Yes, crushing involves energy. I stated very clearly that bullet diameter matters when discussing the 45 outperforming 9mm in the picture I posted, despite ME being about the same between them.

    Finally, something we agree on, although it's an exaggeration. I don't think people shoot 357 three times slower than 9mm . :D

    NO ONE IS DENYING SPEED AND ACCURACY MATTERS. Another made-up argument. I really don't get it. You claim one needs to practice MUCH more with ANY CALIBER more powerful than your pet caliber to be proficient and it's simply not true and you have provided no numbers to support that claim. Split times matter but even that is a matter of balance. For instance, you might not choose a weak load even though it reaches 12" of penetration. You might prefer a bullet that expands to a larger diameter and penetrates to 18". Yes, a round that has more energy, does more damage and inescapably slows split times. If you aren't shooting a low recoil 9mm load then you could be shooting faster! Speed matters, you want to be fast, microscopic differences in speed matter less than large ones and might be worth the difference. Everyone does this.

    I've already explained that 357 sig can be more powerful while having nor more recoil than 9mm. It was in my last post, did you read it? That's right, it can be loaded to lower pressures and be more powerful. Less snappy and more powerful. If you loaded it to be as slow as 9mm, even more so. It would be inherently faster to shoot, more efficient by design. Bottleneck designs are nice that way. If someone is proficient with 9mm then picking up 40 or 357 sig is something to train for but you can't quantify the difference. I would like to know where you reach your nice round 10k practice rounds each rear number, haha. If that is required for 357 then it's also required for 9mm. Also, I forgot to mention that more people are carrying with a comp these days, which does have an effect.
     
  7. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    Show me where.


    Here is the exact quote:

    "You take for example a 44 magnum, does it make a bigger more significant wound than say a 40 caliber or 9mm, yes it does, but really not enough to matter, to change the outcome of a critical event, in those next few seconds which are crucial"

    The guys in your Luckygunner video just lump all pistol calibers together in terms of effectiveness.

    We both disagree with those people and agree on these points, yay.

    Please link me to these, I've been trying to find them. You know, the thing about studies is that they really aren't all they are cracked up to be. On most issues, you can find studies going both directions and it just becomes trading study for study. It's actually a major issue in the sciences. Still, it's the best we can do. I linked a study that made 357 sig look considerably more effective. Granted, that was only a study of a little over 500 shootings. Fredj338 seemed to think 357 sig is statistically about 10% more effective, not sure where that number came from. I only say that it is better at barrier penetration and it potentially delivers more energy into the target and we've already been over the military study on handgun energy.

    What a mischaracterization. Right, all that you get from any round more powerful than 9mm is "less capacity and more muzzle-blast and recoil". Don't you see that you just did the thing that you claimed 9mm fans don't do? It's laughable really.

    You just make stuff up and contradict yourself so I don't know why I bother. There is less capacity, that's a given. Capacity is something people should consider and of course more capacity is nice but, as with many things, a compromise is always made. One has to decide what they likely need and go from there, what best fits their purpose. If you like studies then you should know the average number of shots fired in self-defense per encounter. I think that by the time I'm able to shoot 13 rounds in self-defense (never going to happen) I will hopefully be in a situation to reload real quick. Faster follow-up shots by what amount. It's really pointless unless you quantify it. Again, I'm only interested in 357 sig, I have no dog in this fight really. I own almost exclusively 9mm (some 45, 357mag, 44mag). however, I've shot 40 and didn't see a huge difference. Noticeable sure. You can stop with the "magical" stuff that really only comes out of your mouth. It's not something anyone here is arguing for. The ways in which energy/power of a round become actual wounds is very easy to understand. You can refuse to consider it and call it "magic", but that's out of ignorance of what is being argued or refusal to even understand what people are saying.
     
  8. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    You misquoted them the first time, when I called you on it, you simply quoted them and acted like nothing happened.
    Happens. Every. Single. Time. Sig-round fans say the 9mm fans say they’re all equal. When asked to show proof of anyone saying it, they have nothing. Energy guys wants everyone to think the 9 guys really believe they’re all equal, but they don’t. Just like the performance of their pet round, they make stuff up.
    I’ve linked them already in this thread. Probably more than once.
    I haven’t argued with you at all about any other more powerful rounds; just the sig-round. Can you show me an apples-to-apples test that shows the sig round out performing a 9mm round? The only one that has tried was a test that showed the sig penetrating more (one) sheets of metal using FMJ rounds; I don’t carry FMJ, do you?
    Please tell me what I am making-up?
    Where have I contradicted myself?
    I only link data and tests. I don’t use words like “may, could, possibly, if, etc” to defend my stance.


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  9. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    I quoted correctly, if not then show me. Still nothing. Anyone reading this thread has seen exactly that, an equivocation. It happened in the video you linked. It's plain as day, if I need to explain it when it's in plain english then I really don't know where to start.

    Sure, the videos you posted of the gel test. I could find others but I'm honestly not going to waste my time at this point. The physics are simple, the study I posted made it simple, the math can't be argued with, all things being equal the same bullet going faster does more damage. Nothing is going to change.

    A good example would be the "magic bullet" argument that I'm not making but is a common theme in this thread. That all you get out 357 sig is "less capacity and more muzzle-blast and recoil." That's a hilarious notion. I assume you carry the weakest 9mm you can get to avoid these?

    I don't remember and I'm not going to bother going back.

    ...and opinions. You love listing those words but I really don't think it's doing anything. If you think something that is being argued is false the usual thing is to point out why. If you just want to feel like a list of words is the equivalent, like that's any real response, then I really don't see how it's worth continuing the discussion.
     
  10. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    This was your source? I was expecting something with more substance and there were some ridiculous conclusions in that video....I thought maybe there was some study done by law enforcement that I hadn't seen. You don't believe energy has relevance in wounding but you believe in "stopping power"?


    Edit: I'm not going to bother even breaking down the video/"info" but here is the first critique of the info I found. I just could not believe that the gun community would take this seriously. I'm sure many 380 owners were happy to find it, found one in the youtube comment section really secure in his choice after this misleading info, haha. https://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
  11. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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  12. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Then perhaps you can explain why a 357 magnum is so much more effective than a 38 Special.
     
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  13. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I think I have but lets try again. You need a minimal amount if energy to get the bullet to expand. I dont think the 38sp +p quite gets there. So flip it around, run a 158gr lrn at mag vel & 38sp+p lswchp, i bet the 38sp leaves a bigger impression on the target. Btw, same argument for 380 vs 9mm. Just not enough mass & vel to get good bullet performance but the ME isnt magic, just not, proven all the time in gunfights.
    So can you explain to me why officer Lim wasnt immediately incapacitated with a 357mag to the chest? Where was the incapacitating energy dump? Her story s just one of many thru the years.
     
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  14. fredj338

    fredj338

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    There are so many things wrong I am not sure where to start. You understamd pressure has little to do with vel/energy right? So no, you can not load a125gr bullet to 1400fps & have it produce less recoul, that goes against physics.
    My issue is the oft usdc statement of energy dump. Just how does one measure such a stupid statement? You can't measure it. There is no way to subtract the energy used to deform the bullet & energy needed to crush tissue. Getting excited over a quivering 10-15# block of gel is laughable. So yet again, more energy is better but it is not a fight stopper. There is no magic.
     
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  15. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    So you think the 9mm round for round is equally effective at stopping a fight as a 357 Mag? The 9mm reliably expands, when modern ammo is used at least.
     
  16. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Bro, I have enjoyed reading your posts and agree with the majority of your comments. I also sense your frustration with trying to be patient, honest and logical with others on this forum who seem unwilling or unable to uptake on the simple facts of ballistic performance as you have presented them.

    However I am not sure you are aware of why it is so difficult for some on this forum to accept the reality of basic ballistic performance and why your effort is doomed to failure. The reason is simple they don't want to, why you ask, because most are 9 fan boys, closet fan boys, range queens, independent or employed instructors, trainers, range and/or LGS owners, managers, salesmen. The popular 9mm is their bread and butter, their little low recoil range darling that people stand in their range and shoot all day, their money maker their easy trainer caliber that makes then look good and makes their sales ($$$).

    When you or me say things like the .40 or 357 Sig is a better fight stopper they start to duck and dodge, argue, go off on another tangent, miss quote, blow smoke or play stupid. Fred's posts # 1353 and 1354 are good examples.

    In short please continue to post on GT as your posts are informative and well presented. However do so to share your knowledge with others on GT and forget about trying to convince these guys of anything cause they don't want to hear it and so it's wasted effort.
     
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  17. fredj338

    fredj338

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    With one single identical hit, hypothetical since nothing is identical, I would say the 357 is slightly more effecyive, but very slight. It isnt really measurable. If you go by one shot stop stats, its about 10%. Sure I would take that but I know I could probably land 2 good 9mm hits in the same time as the 357sig. Would that matter more? I say yes. Two 60cal + holes going to vitals cs one, yeah better. I know I can shoot the 9mm strong hand only, weak hand only & get good hits faster than with a 357, 40 or 45. Even though I learned to shoot fast & accurate with both 357mag & 45acp, I learned I am faster still with better accuracy using a 9m +p.
    Once you start realistically evaluating your skill level vs caliber & platform, run enough high speed drills for comparison throw in field exp hunting, study gunfights, you realize that within service calibers, the diff is very small. It always cimes down to good bullets & good fast hits. Any new shooter can get sliw fire, static flat range hits at 21ft with just about anything hand held. Put thst same shooter into a dynamic shooting scenario & it all falls apart. If rds like th 357sig were truely all rpthat much better, then every lea & even the militaru would use it but its just not. Slightly better with a lot of practice, yes. So few shooters though can really get there.
     
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  18. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Nothing to do with this bs about fan boys. I have been shooting 357mags & larger calibers for more years than you have been alive. I just know fact from fantasy. You just refuse to believe your lying eyes. Explain why officer Lim not only was not incapacitated by the energy dump into her small chest, but stayed in the fight & killed her attacker. If energy dump were real, the magic you claim, the lightening bolt affect you claim, it would affect every target the same. She would have frozen dead right there but no, didnt even slow her down & this has been the fact since the 357mag came to be. The 357sig is certainly not anything new. It is effective in good hands, just a noise maker in unskilled hands. Why lea are moving back to,9mm, unskilled shooters do better with it & skilled shooters are better still.
     
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  19. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    Pressure does have something to do with velocity and energy. I'm amazed I even have to say that, although I shouldn't be at this point. I'm not going to elaborate because I think this speaks for itself, better to just leave this as an example.

    In the case of a faster projectile coming from standard pressure 357 sig vs a +p+ 9mm, that means a less "snappy" gun. Total energy imparted on the gun will be the same, there is no free lunch, but the recoil characteristics will be different. If you were to load the 357sig to 9mm performance levels, the difference would be even greater. Why mention this? Well, it counters the idea that 9mm is lowest recoil round that can reach vitals with good expansion. It's not. Do I think one should buy 357 sig to just to load it to 9mm levels? Not at all, but if I had an extreme fixation on the smallest time interval imaginable between shots, I might. By the way, the slower shooting thing you guys push has never been quantified. I think it's insignificant, but I'll play the same game. So in that case, I will just say that 357 sig loaded to 9mm levels will be so much smoother and faster to shoot that 9mm gets you nothing but substantially more muzzle rise, recoil and slower shots when time is critical. ;)

    The rest of the post was really not worth responding to. If nothing else, hopefully others will read this and laugh at the discussion.
     
  20. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

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    Jun 12, 2006
    Thanks man! It was nice to have at least one other sane person around. It would make sense that people just love to standardize, there is something to being in the same boat as most others. Maybe even to deferring to the judgment of others or to the group. Also, it's just cheap, there are many more options and the 9mm round ultimate does have advantages. It seems to be an easy choice at first glance and it'sone people are funneled into. There is some hivemind there. IDK, why people believe nonsense in this case, but some do. It happens in politics too, I think it's mainly personality.

    IDK if you could tell, but I was headed towards not arguing with these guys already. I think I have a pretty nuanced view, I don't think any particular round is supreme. I like 9mm and it is sufficient for the most part. Heck, I would not be caught without a 9mm Glock specifically, for several reasons. I think I've been where these guys are, it's nice to believe your choice does not compromise anything compared to other pistol rounds. The truth is any round you pick will do some things worse than other pistol rounds. It's just a matter of deciding what characteristics matter in you specific case. I was a 9mm fanboy and that 1 or 2 round capacity difference just could not be overcome for me, I thought it meant everything. Being more logical about it though, it just doesn't. The scenarios where it would need more than 13 rounds and just could not reload are more far fetched than a scenario where I might have to shoot through a barrier. I think that holds true for most people The beauty is we each get to decide for ourselves and it's almost certain to never matter anyway because few people ever have to even shoot in self-defense and most bad guys run or give up after being shot with ANY gun. Obviously we are preparing for the unlikely.

    It does seem that we are beating a dead horse at this point. I can't wait to see new participants argue the same things after us. I hope they don't drag me back into it though.
     
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