357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Show me one empirical study where ME alone stops an attack or kills an animal. Yes I am for real, i have been there & done that. You however live in a fantasy world of unicorns & energy dump.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Teecher45 likes this.
  2. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    And yet the 223 constantly fails to down an attacker with single hits. So again, energy dump is a myth, proven every single day.
     

  3. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Yet that does not happen. If what you said is true, higher energy rounds, like the 357sig, would be 100% one shot stoppers & that is just not been proven. Not now nor when the 357mag was in its hayday. Theory vs fact, I know that sucks for armchair guys like you but that is just reality.
    Every study of shootings data shows the 357sig or mag about 10% mire effective than a 9mm. Is that worth the extra training to actually be able to hit with it? Maybe. For good shooters, it might give them that 10% edge, for those that cant deliver good fast hits, its worse than a 9mm they can actually hit fast with. Punching holes, thats it. No physiological force hase been reliably proven. An attacker is just as likely to quit if hit with a 22lr vs 357sig. If your theory fails once, it fails in total. The theory of energy dump fails all he time. More shooting rail less bs theory. If you ever get in a fight, you might survive that way.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Teecher45 likes this.
  4. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

    Messages:
    1,559
    Likes Received:
    659
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Here, I'll provide the quote. Yes, I don't think this guy's opinion is the equivalent of an actual detailed scientific description of wounding. It seems he knows just enough to be dangerous.

    "You take for example a 44 magnum, does it make a bigger more significant wound than say a 40cal or a 9mm, yes it does, but really not enough to matter to change the outcome of a critical event."

    There are situations where a 44mag would do a job that a 9mm could not do or would not do as well. I'm not commenting on how comment that situation would be, but such a situation is possible and bound to have happened in the past. Let me be clear, I would never want to carry a 44mag, but his comment is absurd. I hope now that you see I did not misquote the guy. I can't provide a timestamp if needed. You ignored every other point in the post, which seems rather telling.

    The information I provided is plain to understand and speaks to facts, not guesses
    , contrary to your mischaracterization. That's how you divide the camps but it's made up. I'll tell you the division I see. Those who understand basic physics and those who don't. Those who think 2200fps is a magical number under which absolutely no stretch damage is possible despite all of the contrary evidence and those who understand that stretch damage is linear, as is easily observable. Those who ignore barrier performance and pretend all calibers perform the same in that regard unless it's a rifle caliber and those who follow the easily available evidence to the contrary. It really does seem useless to argue these things. As I get older I recognise that facts do not determine people's positions. You can argue and point out obvious facts, especially in things like politics, and you will just never convince some people. No worries, we all make our own choices and that's a good thing. Cheers.
     
  5. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

    Messages:
    1,559
    Likes Received:
    659
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Can you link me to the study you speak of Teecher45? I'm familiar that such a study happened, but I can't remember the details or find the link. I'm interested in reading it. In my search, I did come across a study for 500+ shootings in Boston that some might find interesting. I'll provide a link to that study and a chart of some of the info. I'm not claiming it proves anything on its own. It seems that Fred has no issue admitting that 357 sig is about 10% more effective according to some study, which is nice to hear. That's really the only point, it is more effective. All of the other stuff, I don't really understand where it even comes from.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2688536
     

    Attached Files:

    Railsplitter likes this.
  6. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    You always go to the ridiculous extreme, make false statements about what others have said and them argue with yourself over your own ramblings. You should at least try to make a valid argument.
     
  7. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    The 357 Sig has 10% more velocity which translates to 20% more wounding and barrier penetrating energy. Those are solid facts that can't be denied but some try to deny that they have any greater advantage. It's the old less is more 9 fanboy/rangeboy fantasy that gets frequent mention.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
  8. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    No its not rambling rail. You claim energy dump. If it exists, it would be uniform on every target like it appears in gel block, but surprise it is not. This proves energy dump is a myth. You are the one believing in unicorns, that is rambling. Far tooo many instance where it doesnt even show up,on an animate target, it runs, it fights, it does not stop.
    This is pure bs rambling right here:
    Being shot can cause both psychological shock and physical shock to the immediate wound area limiting or stopping the ability and/or desire to continue the fight
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Teecher45 likes this.
  9. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    No one every truely claims all service calibers are the identical. I was very specific. If you are willing to train a lot, like 10k rds a year minimum, to be able to place fast accurate 357sig hits, then it will be marginally better, 10% is very marginal. If you can do that though, you will be even more accurate & faster hits still with a good 9mm. This is really not debateable. Any good shooter knows if they can shootba 40 or 45, they will shoot 9mm faster with greater accuracy. Its all about making holes, no more no less. Physiological damage, that is just bs. Reality.
    https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...tacy-lims-story-of-survival-J2ay86axRN55pvP8/
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Teecher45 likes this.
  10. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    "If it exists" it would be uniform on every target?

    I don't know what you are smoking but I don't want any.
     
  11. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    Yea everyone likes being shot. There's no trauma, fear, panic, pain, shock ever involved when someone is being shot and they are staring death in the face.
     
  12. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Not what you are saying rail, you are saying ME will do that, thst is BS.
    I dont think you actually shoot much rail. You strike me as a pure theorist. Keep trying, your argument is only like 50y old.
     
    Teecher45 likes this.
  13. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    Don't know where you get 10% from. The 125gr 357 Sig has 20 % more energy than a 125gr 9mm and 40% more energy than a 147gr 9mm. That averages out to..... 30 % more performance producing energy.
     
  14. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    These happen to a degree with all handgun calibers but more so when hit by a harder hitting round.
     
  15. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    The 147gr 357 Sig has 40% more energy than a 147gr 9mm, the 125gr SIg 20% more energy than a 124gr 9mm. Both Sig rounds are superior barrier penetrating. The 357 Sig is the most versatile and effective of the service calibers.
     
    Dom Pastore likes this.
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Rail, we go around all the time. Study gunfights, see the stats. It might be 10% more effective, the ME isnt translatable to ability in the field, just fact.
     
    Teecher45 likes this.
  17. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    12,900
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Agsin, false, unprovable in animate targets. You can NOT translate gel to animals, doesnt work. Gel is for bullet testing, period. It is just an educated guess as to what the bullet willl do in flesh. No way to measure temp cav ability to, stop a fight. Again, just fact based stuff.
    Temp cavs are icing on the cake, not the cake. Perm wound cavity & crushing vital tissue, that is it, that is all that can be accurately measured on a corpse.
     
    Teecher45 likes this.
  18. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    More power harder hit, Newton's third law of physics.
     
  19. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    7,078
    Likes Received:
    5,280
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    And exactly what would prevent it from transferring?
     
  20. bigj480

    bigj480 CLM

    Messages:
    1,559
    Likes Received:
    659
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Oh yes they do! All handguns round are basically the same, even 9mm vs 44mag according to some "experts" apparently. It goes way too far. You seem pretty reasonable, despite some things I think you misunderstand, but many are not reasonable. You say 357 is a more capable round, round for round and that's more than some will say. The performance difference that we give 357 sig is a generalization as well. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a generalization. We can maximize or minimize this difference depending on load and situation. Barrier penetration is going to increase this number but not all situations require barrier penetration. Few, statistically. However, few people ever actually have to shoot in self defense at all. Most of us are preparing for a statistically unlikely situation as it is.

    Yes, one is going to be faster shooting 9mm than 357 and faster shooting 380 than 9mm. We can go down this road as far as we want. Heck, some people carry 22lr using the same reasoning. It's just a question of balancing power and speed, of pros vs cons. The question is, how much slower is 357 vs 9mm, is it enough to even matter? Here I will not make a claim, it will depend on the person anyway. Some people may be quite a bit slower, some virtually none at all. I don't actually think the difference would be huge on a time for most guys with moderate practice. The first shot would be the same of course, it's only the splits that would be different at all. There seems to be a considerable amount of anecdotal evidence passed around, I don't find that compelling at all. Shot placement matters. Also, people get shot in the head with 9mm or even 45acp and live, but that's equally useless. I would not use that to prove anything because it doesn't prove anything. Someone surviving being shot with 357 doesn't prove a single thing. We don't know where they were even shot. You seem to misunderstand the argument a bit. Let me highlight something from another post of yours.

    "If what you said is true, higher energy rounds, like the 357sig, would be 100% one shot stoppers & that is just not been proven." -fredj338

    This is a bit like saying "if hollowpoints were more effective than FMJ, they would be 100% one shot stoppers & that has just not been proven." Do you see how off base that is? More effective =/= equal one shot stop. Energy dump is not magical, simply dumping energy in a target is not the point. It's what that energy does to the actual target that is the goal. If that person is wearing a vest, for instance, you may dump all of the energy "on the target" and have no effect. What is hit with the round matters. Location of the shot matters. I think you have some idea in your head of the argument that isn't what is really what is being argued. Can you define what you think people here are arguing for? The people who think energy matters. Maybe that would be the best way of clearing up the confusion.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    pAZ Ron and Railsplitter like this.