357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 23 Year member of the 9mm Cult!

    Messages:
    2,656
    Likes Received:
    3,832
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Location:
    Central N.C
    Your 100% correct, and I can't stop looking o_O

    I been tempted start up a thread saying High Point should be offering a 9X25 Dillon and how it is gonna be the new hotness to take down Glock just to see what would happen, but I don't think it would go over to well. :animlol:
     
    Deputydave likes this.
  2. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,282
    Likes Received:
    4,627
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    No I don't think it would go far. The quoted velocities for the 9X25 Dillion are out of a 6 inch barrel. The 125gr 357 Sig if fired out of a 6 inch barrel equals the Dillion's velocity. Out of a 6 inch barrel the 357 Sig gets 1700 fps with 800 ft/lbs of energy if a 115gr round is used the numbers go even higher. So in reality Glock already has the hotness.
     

  3. DocCasualty

    DocCasualty Wolverine

    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    11,735
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2010
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Only two more months and this thread will hit 10 years.

    EF6FD0B4-2B95-4087-8BD8-56DBAA973E41.jpeg
     
    Deputydave and Railsplitter like this.
  4. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,282
    Likes Received:
    4,627
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    For me the 357 Sig has hit 20 years and only getting better!
     
    Guser likes this.
  5. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 23 Year member of the 9mm Cult!

    Messages:
    2,656
    Likes Received:
    3,832
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Location:
    Central N.C
    Well that post was me being a smart ass, I dont have a 9x25 or a 357 Sig.

    What I do have is a 357 Magnum tho and can have a 357 Sig in my hands in about 30 minutes.
    I also have a chronograph and I am actually curious enough to test the theory of the old 125gr 357 Mag load against the 125gr Sig load like had talked about in a previous post.;)

    If I want fast, I skip the pistols and get out my Revolvers, the 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, 454 Casull and 460 S&W Mag keep me busy.

    If I go to a Magnum I want to get the whole benefit. The fact I can throw a BIG, HEAVY dose of lead at my target, fast.

    Even tho I shoot Hogs with my SD pistols I personally prefer a Big Bore Revolver if I am gonna step on the gas. :D
     
    CanyonMan, Teecher45 and Deputydave like this.
  6. unit1069

    unit1069

    Messages:
    9,781
    Likes Received:
    1,943
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Location:
    So. Central US
    In order of handgun recoil I rank the following from least to most:

    9mm
    .357sig
    .45ACP
    .40S&W

    Each one has its own fan base for whatever reasons noted. Recoil is but one aspect of a caliber's (un)worthiness and is only one part of the whole. I try to keep an open mind but so far I haven't been talked out of my own personal choices.
     
    AdamRodgers likes this.
  7. unit1069

    unit1069

    Messages:
    9,781
    Likes Received:
    1,943
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Location:
    So. Central US
    I believe .357sig would be a lot more popular if Big Ammo (Win, Rem, Speer, Federal) offered a variety of JHP self-defense loads from 125- to 160-grain weight. Right now Hornady's 147-grain XTP is the only credible option I'm aware of, but I think most .357sig owners would prefer the HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, and Ranger for that weight projectile unless for hunting purposes.
     
    AdamRodgers likes this.
  8. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

    Messages:
    5,957
    Likes Received:
    12,938
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    for sure 357mag has more power potential. For example, if you look at Prvi Partizan loads:

    357sig
    125 gr
    1541 fps
    660 ft lb

    357 mag
    158gr
    1608 fps
    907 ft lb

    Now, we don't know what barrel lengths these are measured from, but it's nearly 40% more power with 357mag.

    The advantage of 357sig is that you can get 13+1 or 15+1 in a slim lightweight pistol that carries better. It's all about compromise...
     
    Railsplitter likes this.
  9. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

    Messages:
    4,887
    Likes Received:
    4,922
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Location:
    Florida
    I don't feel it is so much trying to talk someone out of their personal choice, but simply using critical thinking skills when discussing the pros and cons of specific calibers.

    I and many folks have stated that all the service calibers are about the same in regards to terminal effectiveness and certainly within the margin of error. Someone above erroneously thought that was only an opinion, it isn't, it's a fact. Study after study has clearly demonstrated this point and numbers simply don't lie. Using the 9mm vs. the 357sig as an example, as I've stated in several posts, sometimes the 9mm clearly shows superior expansion and penetration. Sometimes it's split and sometimes the 357sig shows the advantage. But overall, they are the same in terminal ballistics.

    Additionally, I think it's been sufficiently shown that the 357sig does in fact have some clear cons overall as a service caliber. But again, it's a personal preference choice. In a typical self defense shooting these cons will likely not surface. In a few they might.

    I for one really like the 40 S&W. I don't like it because I think it's superior overall to any other service caliber, I simply like it because I like it. I think it shares some of the disadvantages of the 357sig yet I still like it. If Glock came out with a Gen 5 Glock 23 I'd purchase one (at BL pricing because I'd NEVER pay retail for a Glock since in my opinion it is overpriced at retail civilian prices). I couldn't carry it under the Sheriff because our agency doesn't recognize 40 S&W or .357sig as approved calibers. However, I'm not all that far away from retirement (in truth I could retire today but I keep plodding along until I feel I'm good and ready to retire). And at that point I'd very likely carry a G23.5 if they make one, at least part of the time. But again, not because I believe it is superior to my G19.5...simply because I like it. And that's a good enough reason for me.

    :)

    I think ammunition like 357sig and 45GAP were not properly served by the ammunition companies. The price of a box of either is too high compared to other service calibers. There is no reason for 357sig to be more than a box of 40 S&W and certainly not 2 or 3 times the price of 9mm. And local availability for either simply sucks. Using WM as a general example, through the years I could go to any of the four local WM's and 9mm would take up 3 shelfs, 40 S&W would take up at least a shelf and a half, same with 45acp. But I can't remember ever seeing 45GAP and if I did see 357sig it was one or two boxes off to the side. 32acp had more shelf presence that either.

    Had they both had more presence over the years, with a more reasonable price, both may have seen more wide-spread popularity. But they've both never really risen beyond the status of a niche round. The 357sig slilghtly more so, but not by much.
     
    Big1, DocCasualty and AdamRodgers like this.
  10. unit1069

    unit1069

    Messages:
    9,781
    Likes Received:
    1,943
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Location:
    So. Central US
    Exactly my point.

    I don't need to feed another caliber at this stage of my life but a co-worker's 6-shot Springfield XD in .45ACP has grabbed my attention. I can list pros and cons but the total package certainly intrigues me as a CCW consideration, not that I'm anywhere close to seriously thinking of getting one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    AdamRodgers and Deputydave like this.
  11. Neal

    Neal Millennium Member

    Messages:
    981
    Likes Received:
    297
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 1999
    Location:
    Indiana
    That 357 Mag velocity is no way from a normal barrel length handgun. Maybe from a rifle? Years ago I chronographed some factory 357 Mag 158 gr JHP ammo (Win and Federal) with my 6" L frame. It went about 1200 FPS. Boutique ammo like Underwood or Buffalo Bore may do better, but there is no way they are getting 1600 FPS from a defense size handgun and 158 gr with SAAMI spec pressures.
     
  12. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 23 Year member of the 9mm Cult!

    Messages:
    2,656
    Likes Received:
    3,832
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Location:
    Central N.C
    I am looking at the 357 Magnum in a different way when I speak about it than what is generally being talked about with the 357 Sig.

    I am gonna get this outta the way first, I DO NOT BELIEVE A PISTOL SHOOTING A BULLET AT 1,450 TO 1,550 FPS HAS ANY "SHOCK" OR "ENERGY DUMP" OR WHATEVER. If this discussion is gonna take a turn down that road I am hopping off this wagon NOW.

    If I jump up to more than a 9mm, 38 Super, or 45 ACP I want a heavy bullet pushed fast for 2 things.

    1st. Deep penetration
    2nd. Busting s**t up, such as heavy bone.

    Let's take a 180gr hard cast at 1,500 fps outta my Ruger Blackhawk with a 6 inch barrel. It is a touch obnoxious but dosen't show any signs of over pressure or bother me.

    I don't no SQUAT ABOUT A 357 SIG, I have only had one and I gave it to a friend who needed a SD pistol whenever he was going through a bad divorce. I do have a friend that has loaded the 357 Sig for years and can push a 180gr with a case full of IMR 800X about 1,180 fps outta a Glock 31 with medium pressure signs and a worry it is gonna beat the piss outta his Glock with a 24 lb recoil spring.

    I called him and asked about his heavy load for a 357 Sig, like I have said MULTIPLE TIMES I dont have one, and the more I have to hear about it (I am sorry if this hurts feelings) I don't want one.

    So yes for YOUR type of use the 357 Sig is most definitely what you want.:cheers:

    For what I would use it for, I am happy with a 6 or 7 shot Revolver where I can do what I like to do.:cool:

    Edited : By no means am I saying I don't think the 357 Sig is good SD load, it is. I, ME, AS IN MYSELF, don't have a need for it. Just like the 357 Sig guys say thay have no need for a 9mm,,, I have No need for a 357 Sig. I will jump over to a Revolver when I want that kind of horsepower.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    Teecher45 and Deputydave like this.
  13. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

    Messages:
    12,459
    Likes Received:
    27,158
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Location:
    Northeastern Washington
    Maybe not 1600 fps but how about 1500 fps? Underwood's 158 grain 357 load does 1500 fps.

    And how about 1400 fps/783 ft/lbs with a 180 grain hard cast? 158 grain is not really the optimum bullet weight for the 357 Mag. 125 grains is better for defensive loads and 180 grins is better for a woods load. Underwood's 125 grain (Hornady XTP or Speer Gold dot) load is rated at 1700 fps/802 ft/lbs.

    Underwood's advertised velocities are usually pretty close to the real thing out of defense size handguns.

    Underwood's 115 grain 9mm +P+ load is advertised at 1400 fps. Ballistics 101.com tested this ammo in an LC9 (3.1" barrel) and the average velocity was 1352 ft/sec. And out of a 5" Beretta 92A1 they got 1458 fps.

    I've used Underswood ammo in 9mm, 38 special, 41 magnum, and 10mm, and all of their ammo chronographed close to advertised velocities. In 41 Magnum my test guns were a 4 inch Model 58 S&W and a 6 1/2 inch Ruger Blackhawk and the 4 inch barel got a little below advertised velocity and the 6 1/2 inch produce somewhat above advertise velocity with the 265 grain 1350 fps/1072 ft/lbs load.


    https://www.underwoodammo.com/produ...ad-flat-nose-gas-check?variant=18785707851833

    https://www.underwoodammo.com/produ...-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785727053881

    https://www.underwoodammo.com/produ...-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785727086649
     
    AdamRodgers likes this.
  14. Neal

    Neal Millennium Member

    Messages:
    981
    Likes Received:
    297
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 1999
    Location:
    Indiana
    I have never used Prvi Partizan, but I have never read anything indicating it was in the same league as Underwood. And I'll bet Underwood is using longer than 3 inch revolver barrels to get those advertised velocities.
     
  15. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    31,224
    Likes Received:
    9,892
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Well not entirely true. The 9x25 will always get higher vel regardless of bbl length, not always significant but more. It will just give more blast & recoil to get there. It is no diff than 40 vs 10 or 38sp vs 357mag; more powder capacity = higher vel with any given bullet wt.
     
    Teecher45 and AdamRodgers like this.
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    31,224
    Likes Received:
    9,892
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Real chronographed vel are all that matter. The 357mag though will always outperform the 357sig in any bbl length, if properly handloaded. Factory ammo for both is all over the place.
    I do like & carry the 357sig, but I am under no illusion it is significantly better than other service calibers.
     
    Teecher45 and AdamRodgers like this.
  17. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

    Messages:
    12,459
    Likes Received:
    27,158
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Location:
    Northeastern Washington
    I would guess 4 or six inch rather than 3 inch. Underwood is not good about stating barrel length but Buffalo bore will give you velocities from real guns and not test barrels. I have chronographed both buffalo bore and underwood 150 grain hardcast non-Plus+P full Wadcutter loads in my Humpback S&W model 38 airweight with the 1 7/8ths inch barrel and both loads came very close to 850 fps out of the short barrel. Underwood advertises it as producing 1000 fps and that is most likely out of a 4 inch barrel, and buffalo bore gets 868 out of a 2 inch barrel and 1005 fps out of a 4 inch barrel.

    Keep in mind, too that some barrels chronograph slower or faster than another barrel of the same length by as much as 100 fps. quite often you will get faster or equal readings from a shorter barrel with the same load compared to longer one.

    Here is Buffalo Bore's chronograph results with their 150 grain hard cast full wadcutter load:

    • a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel (actually 1 7/8ths) - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
    • b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
    • c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
    • d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  18. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    31,224
    Likes Received:
    9,892
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Trust but verify. Most all factory ammo will come up short in your own gun. So if you care, chrono it. I am always willing to chrono someone's ammo when I am running mine at the range. Just ask them if they would like to shoot your gun?!?
     
    AdamRodgers likes this.
  19. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,282
    Likes Received:
    4,627
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    With commercial ammo the 357 Sig equals the 9X25 Dillon when barrels lengths are equal. The Dillion has a larger case which offers potential for the hand loader but the 357 has a much greater choice of ammo to chose from.
     
  20. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,282
    Likes Received:
    4,627
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    And that's what it's all about isn't it , a gun that can be carried as easily as a G19 or G26 but yet has the power of the classic 125gr 357 Mag. as well as greater capacity.

    More powerful guns and calibers require larger heavier guns impractical for carry. A 4 inch 357 Mag or 10mm aren't going to do much good as SD weapons sitting in a locked safe. I can however load my easily carried G33 with most anything offered by Underwood and have classic 357 Mag power. Versatility and balanced ballistic performance that's why I carry a 357 Sig.
     
    G26-Has-my-6 and fredj338 like this.