357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Easy enough. Just get yourself a timer and have someone run you some increasingly demanding drills. Do it on a few different days and average the results. That will provide you with an "answer" relative to you. You can review the results and judge them against your desires and expectations. Once you establish a baseline for one caliber, for yourself, you can then compare how the different recoil impulses, slide velocities and muzzle blast effects may affect your consistent performance among the different calibers. Only you can decide how much of any observed differences recorded may be important to you.

    How it works out for someone else only matters to that someone else.

    Different strokes.
     
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  2. MD357

    MD357

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    This would definitely apply if I was confused for my own needs. You are correct, however, in stating that the end result would only apply to that individual.
     
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  3. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Agreed. And I think any objective person would realize that, on average, more rounds can be fired accurately on target with a platform that recoils less than with a platform that recoils more. The precise number will, as you detail, vary from individual to individual. With the larger point being that more rounds, accurately on target is better than less rounds on target. As I mentioned before, the .357sig isn't unmanageable (for most) but it does have more recoil than a 9mm. If someone is really good with a .357sig (or magnum) they will be even better with a 9mm.

    This is where free choice comes into play. It isn't a 'this-or-that' position. In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone chooses as it only effects them and their circle. As I've mentioned numerous times, I really like .357 sig/magnum platforms. A lot of fun. I simply choose 9mm for SD because in my professional opinion, the 9mm advantages at several key points for the use in SD. And that the .357sig has no increase in hit-for-hit performance over the 9mm to make it worth giving up those advantages. Simply put, as I and others have discussed, the increase in velocity (at this level of handgun performance) doesn't increase the damage to tissue in the target to a degree that is of relevance. Again, not outside the margin of error and certainly not big enough to matter one way or the other. And to me, certainly not enough to give up additional rounds in the magazine or on the target. In other words, you have a perceived intangible benefit that is not outside the margin of error vs. a tangible benefit that is applicable in real situations.

    I am not familiar with any L.E. agencies in my region that use the .357sig as a duty caliber. There may be some, but not that I know of in recent years. And I would suspect that the number of agencies that do use the caliber is small, and perhaps getting smaller. It would be interesting to see the number throughout the years. Perhaps the SS still uses it, I don't recall. At any rate, bean-counter cost is one factor. 9mm is simply less expensive for a person or for an agency. This translates, or should, into more bang for the buck practice. In my professional opinion, the reasons I've detailed here and in other posts are also major factors in choosing 9mm or a different caliber over something like .357sig.

    And again, if someone/anyone still likes the .357sig enough to use it as they caliber of preference, rock on. It's America and you're free to do so. Enjoy your choice to the fullest. Just don't get upset at others that choose differently and express the reasons why.
     
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  4. MD357

    MD357

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    Let's not move the goalposts to fit the argument. I don't think anyone said there wasn't a difference. You spoke and said the difference was that you could double the amount of shots in 9mm to shots in .357 sig. It would just be nice to see the reference. If that's what you have experienced then it would seem more practice with .357 sig was needed?

    In terms of tangible differences, that is certainly your opinion, some of us here are just here to clarify that it's certainly not fact. In which, most differences of equivalent platforms are a few rounds. Given the performance of the .357 sig, some of us would take the performance gains over ~2 rounds. It's not like the difference is going from 9mm to .45.

    I don't think it would translate well to a large agency, they are typically worried about costs as the number one factor, if not close behind. In the same sense, I know several agencies that don't use the best performing vehicles, equipment, due to cost. Rather, it's a balance of cost and that makes sense.

    Here's a list from last year.

    https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/how-many-agencies-use-the-357-sig.1705935/

    Here's the fun thing though, I don't think those that choose .357 sig, 10mm, or .357 mag are limited to cost. If they are they should move on down to 9mm so as it's not inhibitory. However, if one does own a .357 platform, most are easily changed to .40 or 9mm with a respective ~$100 barrel swap and some mags. IF you reload for .357 sig, even better. However, if someone doesn't own a press, has limited access to capital, or is restricted in any way, then sure, 9mm makes complete sense. People always state that they can do shoot for "cheaper" through caliber, platform, or gear choices, in which thankfully that's not the top priority for me. Sure it's a reasonable consideration, but far from inhibitory on being able to shoot whatever I please.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  5. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    +1 :cheers:
     
  6. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Maybe, sort of. You are still punching full caliber holes. A 40 solid isn't much bigger than a 9mm. I get it though, why for years I carried a 45, bullet tech was super spotty back in the 70s. Yet a 357sig that fails is a 9mm, its going all the way thru & any thoughts of the magic energy dump are lost.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  7. 0311INF

    0311INF

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    I'm sure it's already been written in this thread, but even the well informed .357 Sig detractors (a notable PhD) admit to higher reliability of desired expansion and consistent penetration, compared to all other service calibers, speaking generally. These advantages are given little attention by these detractors and shrugged off as unimportant factors in terminal ballistic comparisons. Apparently relatively higher ammo quality is the determination. Their words...Since the Sig round is the newest service caliber, it has benefited most from modern manufacturing and technology. In other words, the "technological advancement of 9mm" argument is apparently turned around. Further mental gymnastics ensure that 9mm, or .40 (the goalpost changes due to which desired effect is being is considered) is just as good as .357 Sig in any meaningful respect.
    With very particular loads that may be more true than not. But finding these rounds (like 124+p GD or 180 gr HST) is often just as difficult as finding the same labelled box of 357 Sig. Further, about all 125 gr .357 Sig JHP, regardless of manufacturer, is remarkably consistent in terminal effectiveness. The same cannot be said of 9mm JHP, even when comparing very similar +p loads from various ammo manufacturers.
    I have several 9mm handguns and love some .40 as well, but come on. It is obvious that 9mm hype has gotten way out of hand.
     
  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I rather suspect that's the case when it comes to all service/defensive handgun calibers and ammunition, in general. Handgun hype.
     
  9. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    What are the studies that support this assertion?

    As I've detailed in this and other threads, depending on the bullet weight an manufacturer, penetration and expansion can favor either the 9mm or the 357sig. Sometimes the 9mm is better in both categories, sometimes the 357sig and sometimes it's split. One of the direct comparisons I detailed, using the same ammunition manufacturer and differing only by 1 grain in weight demonstrated the 9mm to have better expansion and better penetration. So it needs to be an apple vs. apple comparison. If a 9mm gets better expansion and better penetration in a particular bullet type over a direct 357sig comparison then the 9mm is the better round in that comparison. And again, that doesn't even touch on the fact that a comparable platform will hold additional ammunition, shoot softer, faster/more accurate follow up shots and put less wear-n-tear on the platform.

    Mental gymnastics? I suppose some supporters of any caliber, or platform for that matter, feel the need to justify their choice. Others however simply use critical thinking skills to look at the subject dispassionately and arrive at a conclusion. I like 357sig, however, of the current service calibers it would be my last choice simply because it's terminal effectiveness, which all things being equal is about the same as any other service caliber, doesn't outweigh it's negative attributes.

    Where are you looking? I don't find that to be true.

    Again, I don't find that to be true in the studies and ballistic testing I've seen. Quality bullets from the typical big companies seem to be quite consistent in velocity spread and expansion.

    Your welcome to your opinion of course, but there is a difference between hype and hard numbers.
     
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  10. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    Title should be changed to, "357SIG took a third row to the 9mm!"
     
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  11. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    Let's just face it. The 357 Sig is just NO DAMN GOOD! It's too close ballistically to the 357 Magnum that law enforcement used for so many years that was no better than the 38 Special!

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    The 9mm and .45 are DEEPLY entrenched in the traditional gun culture. Likes and attitudes are rooted in 100 years of history and use. People don't want to change their favorite caliber or hear that it might not be all that they imagined. Therefore we hear new modern ammo, practically as good as, I can shoot it really fast, etc. when new calibers are mentioned or in the case of the 357 Mag when some older calibers are mentioned.
     
  13. MedicineBow

    MedicineBow Formerly TFLWYO

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    Although you were responding to a post about shot time splits, my perception of what you wrote is that it undercuts a lot of what you write about stopping power.
     
  14. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    The 357 Sig actually surpasses the classic 125gr 357 Mag in performance. The G31 tames the harsh recoil of the 357 Mag, loads 16 rounds instead of 6, reloads faster and has a velocity 100 fps faster when loaded with the Underwood 125gr modern Gold Dot round.
     
  15. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    I was talking about the time needed for bleed out to stop a fight.
     
  16. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    They all fall to hardball.
     
  17. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    And some still get suckered into the Velocity is Everything rabbit hole.
     
  18. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    I actually went through something like this, and I can only speak for two of us.
    I’ve posted this before on GT.

    Most of my adult life I’ve spent it carrying a .45.
    Started out as a full-sized 1911. That didn’t last very long.
    Tried a commander, again, not for very long.
    Tried an aluminum commander with the same results.
    Switched to a G-30 (before the SF model) and carried it for years. The .45 was king in my book.

    Then a friend whom I worked with talked me into trying a 9mm with a shot timer.
    We shot several strings with my G-30 loaded with 230 gr. GD’s against his G-19 loaded with 124 gr. GD’s.
    Five shots as fast as we could keep the rounds on a paper plate at 7 yards.

    I even stated the very first time I posted this, I can’t remember the exact times, but I do remember I was getting 5 shots with the 9 in the same time I was getting 2-3 shots with the .45; shooting the 9mm first.
    It was enough to get me interested.

    As I started doing more research and determined the performance difference between the two calibers (especially with a short barreled G-30) was basically the same, and better for the 9mm in some loadings, I switched.

    The funny thing is, my friend told me he used to be a .40 guy until another friend did this exact same thing for him.

    If you’re serious about protecting yourself and your family you owe it to yourself to try it.

    If you think you’ll be just as fast with a higher recoiling round you’re lying to yourself.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  19. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 9mm, putting in work since 1902 !

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    58 pages of this ^^^^
     
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  20. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Well, if we start talking about the 357sig out of a Taurus we could probably get another 58 pages...:cheers:
     
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