357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    That is correct they were Mdl 10 S&W revolvers. The Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center received and shipped small arms. During my time there we received hundreds of these. After the War they were returned and cut up for scrap. Damn my heart still bleeds.:crying:
     
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  2. amd65

    amd65

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    I drove a commercial truck into Crane for a job I did once.
    Interesting place. I got lost and was driving up and down streets of storage bunkers complete with hazmat suit warnings, and warnings about military dog teams in the woods. Came out on the completely opposite side I was aiming for, lol.
     
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  3. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    That is interesting. We were running 5 unmarked tractor trailers every week from Dupont in Delaware to Crane, Indiana. They were loaded with M-16 powder. We had armed patrol Units fore and aft. Crane NAD supplied the USMC with ammo. The Anti-War groups tried many times to shut us down. It never happened.:flag:
     
  4. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Not in a fair comparison.
     
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  5. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    It must be remembered that shots fired in SD by civilians are at a range of 7 yards or less the great majority of the time. At this range accuracy is achieved by point and shoot, have you ever seen the sights on a J frame. Rapid fire SD accuracy is not that difficult to achieve at these distances and conditions with any service caliber handgun. If there is a slight difference in shot speed it is of little practical value.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  6. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Couldn't be further from the truth as has been made clear numerous occasions in this very thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  7. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Why is this not a fair comparison? We have two viable service calibers in our discussion. Physics dictate that the recoil impulse will be greater on the .357sig. The level of difference will depend upon the characteristics of the rounds used i.e. are we talking about a standard velocity 147 or a +P 115 or 124 vs. a somewhat watered-down or a hot loaded .357sig? But there will be a difference in recoil impulse. This isn't to suggest that the .357 magnum or .357sig is unmanageable. Only that there does exist a measurable difference in getting the pistol back on target for a fast/accurate follow up shot. I've shot all of the service calibers, often side-by-side. Experience has demonstrated that, all things being equal, faster/more accurate follow up shots can be achieved with a pistol with less 'snap'. Thus more rounds can be put on target using a 9mm than a .357sig with the same shooter.

    This isn't to suggest the .357 magnum/sig is 'bad'. Simply that the 9mm has a measurable factor in it's favor i.e. more rounds can be placed accurately in 'X' amount of time than a .357sig in the same amount of time. I like each round in-and-of-itself. My personal preference is that I would rather have more rounds on target than less if time is a factor (which it can be).

    Additionally, as I've mentioned, I would rather have a platform that carries more ammunition if possible (within service caliber platforms). As an example, earlier this year I changed my night stand pistol from a G22.4 to a 19X. With the G22 I had 16 rounds in the platform and with the 19X I now have 20. In my opinion, I'd rather have 20 rounds of 9mm on tap for bumps in the night than 16 rounds of .40 S&W. Others may feel differently but we all have to go with what we feel is best. I still have the G22, it's now my woods carry pistol.

    In regards to the point we're discussing, I prefer a platform that allows me fast/accurate follow up shots because I feel more rounds on target are better than less. Although I like the .357sig and it does have some advantages through barriers at distance, I don't believe that it carries any significant ballistic superiority over the 9mm shot-for-shot that is outside the margin of error. In other words, as I've often stated, all service calibers are statistically the same in terminal ballistic performance. Some may have certain, specific strengths in outlying areas that make sense in some areas over others. Those factors may or may not be more/less important depending on the needs of the shooter.

    I consider 15 yards or less the distance of point shooting. And yes, the majority of shootings tend to fall in feet rather than yards. And while one may consider it hard to miss at that short range, it actually happens with all to alarming frequency. Keep in mind that the average Police Officer and the average civilian shooter are not as proficient as we would hope. The 'gun person' whether Police or civilian is the exception rather than the rule.

    Stress affects people differently based upon their level of experience which goes beyond just range time. Certain types of training, such as the FATS machine, can give a person much more experience that just standard range time due to it's realism and immediate feed back abilities.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  8. MD357

    MD357

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    So I had similar conversation a while back in which everyone was talking in General Firearms in a .40 thread. I asked, what's the difference in split times between 9mm and .40. I got crickets and tumbleweeds. I THEN posted a guy who matched his performance from a G17 time, with a G22. Again, crickets. Namely, the split time on a .357 sig vs 9mm wouldn't be double. Unless someone was sandbagging. I invite anyone to post an apples to apples video for education purposes if they disagree.
     
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  9. kwo

    kwo

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    Best man stopper is a pretty girl in a skimpy bathing suit.
     
  10. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    For the win! :cheers:
     
  11. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    Yes a pair of nice 38s are Super.:drinkie:
     
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  12. DLL9mm

    DLL9mm

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    I really don’t understand why everyone argues over caliber.
    Carry whatever you shoot best. I personally carry 40 because I shoot it better than my 9mms. Not sure how or why, but I do. I practice with 40 more than anything else. Plus it’s kinda cool carrying the internets most hated caliber :)
     
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  13. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Well that's the thing. Some take it personally or are personally invested into a caliber for whatever reason and like to argue. Others enjoy discussing the pros and cons.

    As far as the most hated caliber...dunno, perhaps the GAP is on that list? ;)

    By the way, I also like .40 S&W.
     
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  14. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    No need to even consider shot times the small difference between the time needed to deliver 4 rounds accurately from a 9mm or a .40 is of little practical value outside of a range. Even if someone is shot through the heart a determined attacker can keep going for 15 seconds, if the heart isn't hit bleed out can take much longer. The small fraction of a second difference in shot times is meaningless compared to the time needed for incapacitation.
     
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  15. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Even using timers doesn't always give someone a picture of things in its entirety.

    Do it on different days/nights, at the least.

    Also, change the difficulty of the threat targets, and then introduce conditions that require changing grip technique (dominant/non-dominant hand, 1-handed, etc).

    People can have "slow" days and "fast" days, and everything in between.

    Look for consistency of "splits" when a caliber change might affect any particular shooter, especially as the conditions may change ... and especially if it may affect the "time" between getting off a first accurate hit, followed by a second accurate hit. Not just speed for the sake of speed "on the clock" as someone gets 4-5+ shots into some shot-string.

    If we're talking about the difference of getting off a string of 4 accurate hits in 1 second versus 5 accurate hits in one second ... or faster if you're shooting 2-handed ... is there a difference between that arguably critical initial shot and second shot under different conditions or on different days/nights? Does the caliber or size/weight of the pistol have an effect on any particular shooter?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  16. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Not to mention being sick or injured or shooting from a position of disadvantage.
     
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  17. MD357

    MD357

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    Fair enough, but the claim wasn't made by me, so the parameters weren't set by me either. I just wanted to see the difference.
     
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  18. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    You ask a simple easily understood question but I would wager getting an answer for it will not happen. You will however get a lot of "expert" opinions.
     
  19. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    "Everyone" doesn't argue over caliber.

    There were those who argued the 9 was better than the .45, then argued the 9 was better than a 357 Mag, then the 9mm was equal to the .40, then the 357 Sig, then "all calibers" are really the same, new modern ammo only benefited the 9, the FBI made the 9mm a sacred thing not to be questioned etc etc etc. Notice a pattern?


    Scan back through all the caliber wars on Glock Talk and try to find one that didn't involve the 9mm VS.......caliber.
     
  20. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    In a fair comparison you can not double the number of 9mm hits over 357SIG hits.
     
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