357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    The .45 ACP is only effective when shooting starved Japanese? History does not bear that out. :kidding:
     
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  2. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    That's not what I said. I said that is one of the reasons it got it's reputation as a 'man stopper'. This is not to say the .45 isn't a viable, effective caliber. It is. And I like the .45. But like the .357 magnum, it's reputation is inflated beyond what it is actually capable of doing i.e. it isn't magic.
     

  3. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    The best reference we have is the Hatch study regarding caliber efficiencies. The .357 Mag. 125 grs. bullet has a higher number than most. I am no quoting fantasy.
     
  4. amd65

    amd65

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    The original snarky comment about half starved Japs caught my eye too. Pretty sure some pretty buff krauts fell to it in two world wars.
     
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  5. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    It was not a snarky comment and should not be taken as such. Historically, the .45 was adopted, in part, to stop the Moros (sp?) because the .38 wasn't working well. And the Moros were hopped up on drugs as well. The truth of the matter is that the .45 didn't stop them any better. However, it did get a reputation in and after WWII. I know this from personal research on the topic. WWII is a topic of great interest and indepth research for me for several reasons. Sure, German soldiers were killed by the .45 as were allies by the German Luger.
     
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  6. amd65

    amd65

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    It was the 45 Colt that was used on the Moros, and it was found to be a better bet than the 38.
    My dad served in France and Germany in WWII. While he liked and respected the 9mm, his personal pistol, brought home from the war, was a 45 acp.
    He also had a 9mm Radom, which became my first centerfire personal protection pistol. That started my long use of the 9mm.
    And yes, your statement was snarky, and dismissive of the long history of successful use of the 45acp in combat by American soldiers like Sgt York. It was a declarative statement, and completely wrong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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  7. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    No, it was not a snarky comment. I would know because I’m the one that made it and know the intent and tone. I further stated to you that it wasn’t and should not be taken as such. That ends it. If you’ve taken it as anything else, that’s on you.

    Secondly, I know it was the .45 colt which is why I didn’t say .45acp.

    Thirdly, I have full respect for the military since my grandfather served in WWII, also in France and Germany and was in the Battle of the Bulge. He was Airborne but also an MP while in GB and carried the .45acp. Also, my father served in the Korean War and I’m a veteran serving tours in the Middle East.

    Fourthly, I do not elevate any service caliber above another. They are all statistically identical in terminal ballistics.
     
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  8. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Thanks for not holding us in suspense. I am a proponent of service caliber ammo loads that produce noticeably greater peak ballistic pressure waves working toward incapacitating BGs quicker on average. I see the theory as something to consider after making sure the ammo load has already passed FBI ballistic gel protocol for penetration depth. To each there own.

    So when one ammo load penetrates 12" on average in ballistic gel and another 18", you're saying those terminal ballistics are statistically identical?
     
  9. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    It gained a well earned reputation for a reason, inflated or not. It would seem your goal is to underinflate the 357 Magnum's reputation.
     
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  10. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Why the snide comment? It isn't warranted or helpful to the conversation.

    You're entitled to believe anything you wish. Ballistic wave pressure theory was debunked back in the 90's (also called kinetic wave theory, wound ballistic theory and a bunch of other monikers that changed from time to time). At one time it was put forth that any round above 500 fpe would have instant capacitation. Of course, this doesn't actually happen, but it was part of the theory back in the 90's.

    I feel we've had this conversation before, quite a few years ago. Did we?

    Nope, that is not what I said.

    Nope, not my goal at all.
     
  11. amd65

    amd65

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    You should just change your screen name to “I didn’t say that”.
     
  12. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    You seem determined to be offended by something it seems? And you also seem to want to argue about something. How about I put you on ignore and we both call it a day. No response necessary.
     
  13. amd65

    amd65

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    "Ignore"...
    The snowflake's refuge
     
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  14. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    The Semi-Auto pistol was being adopted by the World Forces. America was using revolvers dating to the Indian wars. John Browning offered a semi-auto 1911 pistol in the cherished .45 caliber. His semi-auto would replace the .45 Scofield round. The Germans sent 3 .45 ACP Lugers to Utah for testing. Fortunately we chose the 1911. The .45 Caliber was chosen as it would kill horses Calvary Mounts better than other calibers.
     
  15. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    As a side note, some A.F. units used .38 Special revolvers into the 90's.
     
  16. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    That is true. But in Vietnam many air crews and piolets had .357 Ruger BH revolvers. They were strapped securely to the leg. They may other wise be lost during parachuting.
     
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  17. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    That is true. But in Vietnam many air crews and piolets had .357 Ruger BH revolvers. They were strapped securely to the leg. They may other wise be lost during parachuting.
     
  18. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Although I don't remember specifically, I want to say the SP's on the bases I served at had S&W Model 10's. I can't say for certain, but I remember it was similar to the S&W Model 64 I was first issued in 90 when I started with the S.O. (one being blue and the other SS of course).
     
  19. unit1069

    unit1069

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    According to what I've read the .38 Super is a very capable caliber but not as powerful as .357sig or .357 Magnum.
     
  20. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    The .38 Super was developed for police during the 1930s. It was more capable of penetrating cars. Because of the chambers in Colt 1911 pistols it was tamed down.
    It is now the number one round in the IPSC Competion. For hand loaders using fully supported ramped barrels there is special brass. It is Starline .38 Super Compt. brass. Check the new ballistics on my link.

    http://www.ballistics101.com/38_super.php