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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.
Ah, I forgot. And energy dump + shock = knock down power
Yes two separate things. One is a person the other a gun.
I Did a few summers ago and for the 125 grain loading I was using their average 1503
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What? Just how does one get all that magic "speed kills, stopping power or energy dump" into a target unless they can shoot it, like more than one round on target???? No, not everyone can handle the add'l recoil beyond slow fire target shooting. Or do you subscribe to one round is enough? Yes, first shot hit times would be the same with any caliber, but can you actually land the hit & heaven forbid another one before your target moves or responds? No, you cannot talk about the performance of any given caliber without talking about the platform & ability to shoot it. Otherwise we would all carry 4" 44mags for the "stopping power".
I am glad to see that this issue finally is resolved after almost 10 years and dozens of pages of posts!
We should do something fresh like 9mm vs. 45acp
Naw, 9 vs 45 was way too easy.
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Best caliber for bear defense?
Is the (insert caliber here) going extinct?
Which caliber has the best stopping power?
What’s better, a revolver or a semi-auto?
Manual thumb safety or not?
All those are safe topics to discuss.
This "issue" was resolved in 1998 when modern Speer Gold Dot ammo was loaded into a modern 357 Sig caliber handgun. It's just that some are a little slow on the uptake.
10 years and 55 pages and it's finally said. This is at the heart of the matter.
All of these keyboard commandos who subscribe to these ridiculous energy dump theories, OSS, etc. believe this. They might try and deny it but they lie. They lie to us and they lie to themselves. Energy dump theories are no different than a child's blanket, teddy bear, or pacifier. To the OP, this windbag Railsplitter, and their ilk believe that there is a magic bullet that will save the day and make up for lack of training, poor placement, and all of the other factors which reasoned people know is emphatically not true. But it makes them feel warm and safe.
I wonder if they sleep with the light on.
Everyone sleeps better with a teddy bear.
More energy, with the right bullet, bigger bullets, all great stuff. One still has to be able to deliver that. I have moved several shooters off their compact 40 or 45 because they cant shoot it &'are unwilling to put the time in to learn to manage recoil. Its the primary reason lea are moving back to 9.
In past years I would never consider a 9 because of poor bullet tech. I always reached for a 45. Today its diff. I can hav a smaller gun woth more ammo & it is at least as effective as some 4o or 45 jhp. I am good woth that. I own & shoot all the service calibers & like them all. In my 10+1 staye, I am likely to carry the g32 but I am fine with a g26 & hst + p ammo.
Ok, but a situation in which circumstances nullify bullet tech lead one back to .45 or .40 to get the job done. Cold weather can nullify bullet tech by placing layers of down and other garments to plug hollow-point cavities. When hollow-point cavities are plugged, we're left with bullets functioning as hardball. For my money, .45 hardball would be much more comforting than 9mm hardball.
First it was 9 VS the .45, then 9 VS the 357 Mag, then 9 VS the .40, 9 VS the 357 Sig! I think I see a caliber war pattern forming here.
No need to sweat the hardball stuff any more, we have moved beyond that.
Good barrier blind performance without over penetration.
Fed 124 gr 9mm HST 1150 fps 364 ft lbs
Fed 124 gr +p 9mm 1200 fps 396 ft lbs
Fed 125 gr .357 SIG HST 1360 fps 513 ft lbs
The .357 SIG does approach .357 mag performance.
The comment that you need to be able to shoot applies to any cartridge.
So if you can handle the.357 mag and it has greater velocity and energy why not go with it?
Reasons to go with 9mm instead.
Some practical reasons include 9 mm is sufficient (FBI test) less felt recoil , also ammo more available and cost effective .
Do not need another platform, can standardize on 9mm.
This non bonded Corbon 125gr JHP 357 Sig round at 1425 fps is almost a perfect match to the classic 125gr 357 Mag round at 1450 fps.
The .38 Super is a fine choice. It can match the proven .357 Mag. man stopper.
The .38 Super can run with the 125 Grs hollow point just as fast.
However, certain barriers will defeat .45acp whereas they won't defeat a smaller diameter caliber. I've mentioned before the two Texax DPS Officers. The Sgt. had an issued .45acp and his FTO recruit a newly issued .357sig. They both were fired upon by the occupant of a pick up truck and they returned fire from the rear of the truck. The rounds had to penetrate the front wall of the bed liner as well as the cabin wall. The .45acp did not penetrate both, the .357sig did and hit the perp.
This isn't to suggest the .357sig is better than a .45acp or vice versa. Only that specific odd circumstances can happen that will favor one round over the other. In general, they are all the same from the perspective of terminal ballistics. They all fall within the margin of error in regards to each other, speaking of service calibers.
It should also be noted that some calibers, such as the .45acp and .357 magnum have had their reputations somewhat inflated over the years. To be clear, I like each caliber. But to be honest, they aren't magic. The .45acp gained a reputation in WWII against half starved Japanese soldiers at close range while rooting them out in tunnels on islands in the Pacific. It and the .357 magnum has had it's reputation inflated by over-enthusiastic gun rag writers over the years.
Although I really like a good .357 magnum (and in truth my first off-duty revolver was a .357 magnum), today there is no way I'd chose one for SD over a 9mm. Why have 6 shots of .357 when I could have 10, 12, 15 or more rounds of 9mm in the same sized platform? Particularly since they're about the same on the end result. In the woods or a rural setting the dynamics may change. Again, not putting one above the other, but rather pointing out some strengths and weaknesses within the calibers.
Whereas the .45acp and .357 magnum have been amped up due to creative gun rag writing, the 9mm has been downplayed. Due in large part to the Miami FBI shootout in 1986. To be fair, the 9mm Silvertip performed exactly as designed. It simply failed under that angled shot and was subsequently vilified and used as the scapegoat to cover for piss poor tactics and preparation. The truth of the matter, and I believe these are still valid stats, the 9mm has stopped more folks than all the other calibers combined (worldwide) and has also had more failures than all the other calibers combined (worldwide) simply due to the number of people shot. But if you distill the numbers down (and some have attempted to do so on a limited basis) all the service calibers are statistically the same in terms of terminal effectiveness. Odd situations my elevate one over the other in a specific situation, but overall they are all the same.
Shoot what you enjoy shooting because it really doesn't matter. What does matter is reliability, penetration, fast and accurate follow up shots and shootability of the platform.
"They all fall to hardball", a lesson learned from decades of shootings, puts an end to the energy dump theories. LOL.