357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by glock20c10mm, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    If you really want to learn, stay out of this assclown circus and go read the Reloading section. There are guys that post there that forgot more about internal, external, and terminal ballistics learned from real life experiences than the self-proclaimed experts in this forum would ever hope to know. This Railsplitter guy is nothing but a windbag.
     
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  2. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Or an adrenalin rush can negate the affect compared to the same scenario without the adrenalin rush. Also it's possible to perform better under stress when forced to act before anticipation sets in. Sensory deficit can work both ways. But of course it is an unclear science as some peoples reactions, conscious or not, will be different than some other's.
     

  3. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    It wasn't about lumping. It was about making the point the 357SIG wasn't represented and therefore couldn't be judged against the other rounds represented in the study. That along with showing the only other "higher energy" rounds represented such a small part of the study that there was no way to fairly judge them either.

    All that besides the fact we are never told what actual bullet was used for each shooting in the handgun rounds except that around half of the 9mm representations were FMJ bullets.

    What facts? The only fact was lack of data to make a fair comparison of much of anything. There was no information on what bullet was used in any handgun round except the "around" half of the 9mm loads were full metal jacket.

    The article made no mention of what ammo these guys shoot, if any. Assumptions won't help anyone's argument.

    Are we reading the same article you gave the link to? Never once do they mention what they shoot or that they shoot at all.

    The article in the link you provided says; "Chris is the Product Line Manager for Federal, CCI, and Speer handgun ammo and Johann is the Technical Lead for Federal and Speer’s law enforcement division." Maybe Chris has some role in making bullets, they didn't give enough information to know. Johann definitely does not make bullets.

    As I've clearly pointed out there isn't a fraction of the data needed to show any real world difference between the service rounds. All the service rounds aren't even represented. You have a study representing an actual 1835 shootings. Only 853 of the shootings represented any modern day service round which were limited to 9, 40, and 45. Of those, in 9mm alone, around 228 of the shootings were FMJ. You consider that a proper representation of all service calibers? You believe that allows for any kind of fair comparison between one to another, especially when 357SIG alone isn't even represented in the "study"?

    What doesn't matter?
     
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  4. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    Exactly.

    And if someone is still shooting at a BG beyond a 4th or 5th round they are pretty much in the act of spraying and praying. If not it's probably because the BG won't go down and is still firing back at you because they are either wearing body armor or are high on something. And if either of those are the case you more than likely wouldn't be in a position to continue making aimed accurate hits after the first couple or so rounds anyway for various obvious reasons. Quicker split times are only going to get you so far, and more than likely not any farther than split times that are slower but not noticeably so till you have a shot timer to tell you so.
     
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  5. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Agreed. No service caliber is heads-n-shoulders above any other service caliber. It all boils down to penetration and shot placement. I have not seen any shift towards the .357sig in my region. The shift has been either towards 9mm or .45acp. There may be the odd agency, but I can't think of any in my region that uses the .357sig. It just isn't any better for our A.O. and costs more than 9mm to train with.
     
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  6. kyjd75

    kyjd75

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    Without reviewing all 53 pages of this discussion, my apologies if someone has already posted this link. But it is the best discussion of "terminal ballistics" that I have seen anywhere, even though it may make some folks upset to hear what these guys have to say. It is a YouTube video from Primary & Secondary Modcast entitled "Terminal Ballistics." Here is the link:
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1_IXxJp4Ik
     
  7. AR-Tenner

    AR-Tenner

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    This is an excellent point, and is a big part of the reason that I both believe strongly in the .357 Sig for self defense, and encourage my family members to use it (I have been carrying a Gen 4 31 for years since switching from the Gen 4 21, and the first thing my parents-in-law did after getting their green cards this year was pick up matching Gen 4 32s); shooting someone many times in a defensive situation can make one look overzealous, even if the circumstances clearly called for deadly force.

    I am an attorney, and although most of my work is in corporate law at the federal appeals level, I used to work in criminal law and now do pro bono work for defendants in firearms cases, and if I could pick one thing that can make an otherwise-justifiable shooting look very problematic from a legal point of view, it is if the would-be victim pumps many rounds into his or her attacker. Unlike the myths of overpenetration or using handloads in self defense, this issue actually does happen often. Here in Virginia not too long ago a small woman had a large man on top of her trying to rape her, and she shot him 3 times, and while the circumstances justifying deadly force were not disputed, the Commonwealth's Attorney's office decided to charge her anyway because they deemed firing 3 shots to be "excessive force." While she was later acquitted, being charged and enduring a trial is a catastrophic life event, and it happened because of just 3 shots.

    While this is an artificial constraint put on us by the law and is outside of the science of ballistics, it is still something that is very important to take into consideration when planning for self defense, and strongly informs me in wanting round that will stop a violent attacker as quickly and with as few shots as possible.
     
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  8. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    It's interesting that this thread has gone 53 pages over 9 years. These sorts of threads tend to devolve into caliber warz and hurt feelings over folks favorite caliber. I try to look at the subject objectively based on experience in L.E., ballistics testing, having been in the O.R. multiple times and interviewing individuals that have been shot.

    Based on that experience and research, I do not believe in OSS theory, ballistic wound theory, hydrostatic shock theory or any of the sort. They have all been proven to be junk science at best more times than I care to document. If someone wishes to put stock in any of those 'theories' they are welcome to do so. There may be some, but I'm not familiar with any L.E. agency that puts stock in them either. Rather the emphasis is shot placement and penetration.

    Having said that, the .357sig round, like any other service caliber with the proper bullet, can be an excellent round in terms of expansion and penetration. In some areas the .357sig round excels such as penetrating barriers that larger rounds (like the .45acp) may have difficulty with. I've detailed one such example before from the Texas DPS. It is a flat shooting round and very accurate so in some A.O.'s such as the west with wide open spaces it can be a benefit. So as far as a handgun goes, it can be an effective round/caliber.

    I grew up on the .357 magnum and like that round as well. I've had the .357sig a couple of times in two different platforms; An M&P40 with a .357sig barrel and a Glock 32. In the end I got rid of them. Not a dislike for the caliber, personal preference and practicality.

    Let me expound (and fans of the .357sig should not take this as a slap on them or the caliber but rather my personal reasons as to why I prefer other choices). I like the .357sig but don't own one anymore. I like the .45acp but currently don't have one of them either. I have a G22.4 in .40 S&W which I like (caliber and platform) that has a 9mm conversion barrel. My preferred caliber is the 9mm.

    I'll use a typical platform like the Glock 17 and the Glock 31. Both are serviceable platforms. The G17 will hold two more rounds of ammunition. I prefer more ammo rather than a slightly more powerful but less amount of ammo. While the .357sig is generally manageable for most, simple physics dictate it has more recoil. Generally speaking, less recoil means more accurate and faster follow up shots. I prefer more rounds on target than less rounds on target. As I've said before, I'm very good with a magnum and I'm not recoil shy. Having said that, all ego aside, I can put more 9mm rounds accurately on target in the same amount of time than I can a .357sig in the same amount of time. While this may translate differently from user to user I will state that in X amount of time I can double the number of 9mm hits over .357sig hits. Again, it's just simple physics that you can get back on target and squeeze the trigger quicker on a platform that recoils less over one that recoils more. That is only part of the equation though. A .357sig does have increased velocity and FPE over a 9mm but it is not sufficient enough to make a meaningful difference at handgun velocity or power levels. Numerous studies have been linked here and are available to those interested that show any difference one way or the other is within the margin of error. IIRC, it was Federal that put the velocity threshold at around 2300 fps to have any meaningful effect. If someone wants to believe a .357sig traveling 1400fps will have a meaningful difference over a 9mm traveling 1200fps they are welcome to do so. I don't. I'd rather have more 1200fps 9mm rounds on target that less 1400fps .357sig rounds on target. And again, in pretty much any comparable platform I'll have more 9mm ammunition available.

    On top of that, .357sig ammo is more expensive and not always generally or locally available in the quantity or variety as that of 9mm. My preference is for a round that is vastly available just about anywhere. The .40 S&W falls into this category as well.

    So there is nothing inherently wrong with the .357sig but I feel that better options are available and several considerations make other calibers generally better overall.
     
  9. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    You worry about split times on the range not on the street.
     
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  10. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Hydrostatic shock isn't a theory or a religion that you believe in it is a reality of physics and ballistics.
     
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  11. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Let me rephrase; hydrostatic shock is fairly meaningless within the velocity ranges of service calibers. If someone wishes to believe there is a significant difference between a 124g 9mm doing 1200 fps and an 125g .357sig doing 1400 fps then they are welcome to believe so. I do not. I do not believe there to be even a marginal difference that is meaningful in any way. Certainly that outweighs the benefits of having more ammo in the platform and faster follow up shots.

    Or, as I've mentioned before, having to shoot one-handed or with your support hand while sick/injured.

    YMMV.
     
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  12. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers "Facts matter, Feeling can lie" DocGKR

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    Nice to see nothing has changed since I been gone. :animlol:
     
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  13. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Hoping to mitigate some of the effects of sensory deficit has been shown to be more likely with proper training and its recurrent reinforcement.

    Hoping to "perform better under stress" is still going to require we have something to access and fall back upon during those unexpected moments of severely elevated stress. This is why proper training has sometimes been described as having the effect of being a type of "stress inoculation".

    If you haven't already done so, you might find it interesting to read On Combat, by Dave Grossman, to learn how research has shown the effects of severe stress on people, physiologically and psychologically, and how it affects our heart rate, breathing, nervous system, visual and auditory perception, and even our memory.
     
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  14. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Yep the names may change but a fanboy is still a fanboy.
     
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  15. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers "Facts matter, Feeling can lie" DocGKR

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    Hey, gotta like whatcha like. Life is way to short to be stuck with something ya don't enjoy. :cheers:
     
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  16. Mahalo_.357sig

    Mahalo_.357sig #787 Top Gun .357sig

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    I am comfortable with 9mm, .40, .45 but I prefer to have 357sig as my duty rig. In my free time what ever I pick up is what I roll with. Where I go also influences what I carry.. Some places I feel fine with my M&P .45 shield and a spare mag whereas some places I will carry my G31 and a spare mag.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
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  17. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    I would never argue against training/practice. No doubt they are your friend regardless anything else being discussed.
     
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  18. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Are we talking about the shooter again and his training?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  19. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm

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    I know, right.
     
  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    First of all, congrats for creating a thread topic that is rapidly approaching being active for 10 years. ;)

    Now that we've had more than 9 1/2 years to look at your OP question, though, it seems the actual answer is that the caliber has been significantly on the wane in the subsequent years since you posed the question.

    The only large agency I know of who has issued .357SIG for many years here on the West Coast decided to begin transitioning from .357 to 9 back a couple years ago, and the rumors I heard back then of the USSS contemplating a change from .357 to 9 seem to have been true.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-secret-service-switching-9mm-glock-pistols/story?id=64719349

    Well, since it's your thread topic, it's certainly your prerogative to ask to limit the thread conversation to the reputed talismanic properties of the .357SIG. ;)

    Personally, I suspect we're going to continue to see the LE/Gov users cyclically swing to and fro when it comes to the efficacy and desirability of the 9 & .40 as duty calibers ... and the .45ACP seems doggedly determined to remain in the running as a 3rd place contender, despite it having been pronounced virtually "obsolete" as a service caliber time and time again.

    The 9mm will probably maintain an advantage due to the training and maintenance considerations of the end-users. Being able to keep guns running longer, with a little less required maintenance, and being able to better train & maintain skillsets of large groups of work-a-day shooters aren't insignificant considerations.

    Now, you didn't ask about the commercial/private buyer market in your OP, but the reasons, desires and fickleness of private owners is another subject unto itself.

    Same old, same old.

    :)
     
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