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357 vs 40 vs 9 - Follow-up shot ranking

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by SFla27, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. SFla27

    SFla27

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    Hey guys.

    Background: Considering a 357Sig conversion (and even a 9mm conversion) for my G27 Gen4. Not that I am disliking the .40, but I don't see myself being able to get fast and reasonably-accurate follow-up shots in the foreseeable future. Maybe with a ton of practice, perhaps. But that ton of practice comes with a price tag. :crying:

    I've never tried the 357Sig. Looks like many consider it a great round.

    My post is solely to address the muzzle flip / speed of acquiring sight picture again / follow-up shot proficiency when comparing the .40 and 357Sig. And for completeness purposes, we'll throw in the 9mm in there as well.

    Of course, an individual's observation and "opinion" about felt recoil will vary, widely in some cases. However, for those who have experience with both (or all three) calibers, I'm sure a reasonable opinion can be made.

    I was just wondering if there is a consensus that you can get faster follow-up shots with a 357Sig than the .40.

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. plouffedaddy

    plouffedaddy

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    My shot timer tells me 'no.'

    9mm is faster however.
     

  3. Rustin

    Rustin

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    There is a reason they don't let 9mm compete with .40's and .45's. It's because less recoil=faster shots. I would swap that G27 for a G26 if I were you. Sometimes you gotta take a hit on $$ and learn the hard way. Double taps in the center of mass as fast as possible is what you want to be able to do with your pistol.
     
  4. Green Mountain Boy

    Green Mountain Boy

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    I find my G27 fine for follow up shots with the .40 ammo in the pipe. However there is no question that I would be a tad faster with 9mm. I am confident with my .40 and happily carry it.

    I don't care how much practice costs you have to find a way to do so if you are going to take this seriously. I will say that you can get some good practice in for the cost of a conversion barrel and the proper mags. Same is true for the $ you would loose on a trade in.

    My best advise is to get some professional training for that $ and make your practice really count.

    Regards, GMB
     
  5. 92GTA

    92GTA

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    Have you considered simply getting a C model to reduce the muzzle flip? It only reduces velocity by 3-6% and does nothing for recoil, but it greatly reduces muzzle flip so you can sight your target back in MUCH quicker.
     
  6. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan

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    Are you talking about competition or self-defense?

    For competition, bullet velocities are much reduced and heavier bullets such as the .40 should have somewhat of an advantage.

    Self-defense loads are a whole different situation but maybe shaving 0.05 second isn't all that important.

    I realize that the current thinking is to use an isosceles stance but one advantage of the Weaver stance is that the left hand is pulling down as well as back. This is a great help in controlling muzzle flip. Old school, I know...

    Make sure you are keeping your eye(s) focused on the front sight during recoil. This is harder than it sounds (and everybody swears they are doing it) but you should watch that sight all the way through until it gets back on target. As it comes onto target, squeeze the trigger. Don't wait for perfection.

    Richard
     
  7. barth

    barth six barrels

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    I've got a gen 3 G27 with six barrels
    in three calibers, lengths and finishes.
    Felt recoil is a subjective thing.
    And I'm not a competition shooter with a timer.

    Comparing my OEM G27 and G33 barrels;
    I feel the 357 has a little more muzzle rise and recoil.
    The 40-9mm conversion feels like less than both.
    We are talking split seconds though.
    And I would feel very comfortable defending myself with any of the three.

    The interesting twist is I have a G27-357 Sig 4.16" ported barrel.
    It feels very much like a 9mm +P with the porting.
    And I shoot my best groups with it.

    For what it's worth...
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  8. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME

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    I did a 40 vs 9mm Glock subcompact comparison recently.
    The average 1st - 2nd shot times were nearly the same; however, the 40 took more "effort". My "test" was a 6'' circle place on a target at 6 - 7 yards. I used a shot timer and averaged 1st - 2nd shot times for about 8 pairs (16 rounds). Ideally, all rounds would hit the circle when shooting as quickly as I possibly can. Although the average times were equivalent, the 9mm had all but one shot on the 6'' circle with an average time of .25 second; the extra recoil of the 40 S&W resulted in a few rounds landing further from the circle. If I shot 1 round per second all rounds would hit every time. I'm going to put XS Big Dot sights on the 40 soon, I had them on a previously owned pistol and they were an asset in my little "test".
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  9. RYT 2BER

    RYT 2BER

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    I gotta admit... I don't see you being able to get fast and reasonably-accurate follow-up shots in the foreseeable future either. :rofl:
     
  10. SFla27

    SFla27

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    Gentlemen,

    Thank you for the words of wisdom.

    I will take your comments and advice and integrate that into my practicing.

    I guess I could start with timed drills. One second per shot at 7 yards. That'll be a baseline. I think I remember seeing a few posts / threads about follow-up shooting drills. Maybe Mr. Ayoob, perhaps? I'll search for them.

    And did anyone see a post from RYT_2BER? I didn't think so. Must have been a figment of the imagination. :upeyes: :supergrin:
     
  11. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    This is all gun-specific too. I can shoot a good .40 like the M&P full size faster and more accurately than a P30 in 9mm. The M&P just points better, and there may be some other factors (trigger especially). The M&P just falls back into place perfectly after recoiling. I'd like to really wring out what I could do with it but the range frowns on rapid fire. But as long as I can keep a tight group even if they come down to complain I think I can justify it. My goal is 4 rounds in one second on a 6" circle at 5 yards.
     
  12. JW1178

    JW1178

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    As a round, the 9mm loses here. The only thing it has on the .40 is velosity. Some say sectional density too but that's minor. The .357sig wipes the floor with the poor little 9mm. The only thing the .40 can beat the .357sig with is bullet weight and caliber. The 9mm stopping power performance almost always comes out short.

    Then there is the round in the gun itself, the 9mm wins big here. For one thing, most guns that are available in .40 and .357 are designed for the 9mm. So basically the the .40 and .357 versions are just modified 9mm's. I don't think there is a single gun out there that was designed for the .40 or .357 and later came out with a 9mm version. On top of this, 9mm wins on capasity. No matter how you stack the other two, you won't beat the 9mm.

    Then there is the the gun in the shooter's hands. The 9mm has less recoil so usually the shooter can follow up faster with the 9mm. So the 9mm wins again.

    The there is the shooter himself/herself. More people can shoot the 9mm easier, and due to the 9mm being cheaper, the shooter can practice more, further increasing the effectiveness. Yet another win here for the 9mm.

    The only question is do the other two rounds better performance in stopping power enough to overweight the other factors?
     
  13. English

    English

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    Many will disagree but I think you are thinking about this in the wrong way. If you are in a gun fight your first priority should be to avoid being shot. Partly, this because if you are shot it will slow down your rate of fire not just by the odd 0.05 of a second per shot but maybe by half a second or much more. This will probably result in you loosing the fight and possibly your life. So, are you just going to stand there and shoot as fast as you can?

    There is no perfect solution to this but it has been demonstrated with man on man airsoft shooting beyond any doubt by Suarez International experiments and on numerous of their courses to large numbers of students that the best tactic at reasonably close range is simultaneously to accelerate hard into an evasive run and to draw and fire, using point shooting. This is not the smooth movement beloved of IPSC and so on that allows you to get a sight picture but a hard run that makes point shooting the only feasible method.

    The interference of running makes the odd 0.05 of a second immaterial but, and Suarez will disagree with this, it makes the extra damage per shot of .40S&W or 357SIG relative to 9mm very valuable. This can't be demonstrated with airsoft training because airsoft hits do not degrade the performance of your opponent, but the reality is that evasive action will only save you for a limited amount of time. Within that time you have to have settled the fight in your favour. .40S&W and 357SIG do significantly more damage per shot at a cost of insignificantly more time per shot and no time penalty at all for the first shot.

    I don't think you can learn how to do this from the internet, and although you might be able to re-invent it by practice with a group of like minded individuals it is unlikely that you will do so. You should seriously consider Suarez's point shooting course and a close combat course. Talk to them to find out what is appropriate. The courses are not cheap but if you are serious that is what you need to do. Get moderately competent first. Get an airsoft pistol like your real pistol and learn some point shooting by playing with it. You will be surprised at what you can do.

    By the way, by all means get a conversion 9mm barel and magazines for cheaper practice but stick to .40S&W or 357SIG for self defence.

    English
     
  14. Adamz04

    Adamz04

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    I much prefer 357sig over 40.
    I don't have any statistics to back it but I do shoot it better.
    IMO I feel like the 357sig has less muzzle rise and recoil than 40 but that is subjective.
     
  15. kashdaddy

    kashdaddy Glockaholic

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    goes in least to most: 9mm, .40, .357 sig/mag.

    Easy, less felt recoil = faster realigning. You can calculate it, I think its bullet weight times velocity (FPS). Or, if you dont have a calculator, just listen to see which one is louder - hehehehehe.
     
  16. 1canvas

    1canvas

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    its not just the caliber in these comparisons its also the ammo and type of gun. a better evaluation would be to pick the top performing ammo [maybe middle weight for caliber] from the same manufacturer [top three] and the same gun and compare them. there is just to many variations in ammo and also guns to make any kind of fair assessment of caliber recoil and performance.
     
  17. barth

    barth six barrels

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    Glock G27 gen 3 Platform:
    Barrel / Ammo

    1) Glock G27 OEM 40 3.46" / Speer GDHP 40 155 gr
    2) Glock G33 OEM 357 3.46" / Speer GDHP 357 Sig 125 gr
    3) Storm Lake G27 40-9mm 3.46" / Speer GDHP 9mm 124 gr +P
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  18. 1canvas

    1canvas

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    thats what I'm talking about:thumbsup:.
     
  19. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME

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    Your ears deceive you, blast and recoil are not the same.
    In order of calculated recoil:
    G26 Ranger T 124 gr. +P @ 1,162 fps / 372# KE / PF 144
    G33 Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,280 fps / 454# KE / PF 160
    G27 Ranger T 165 gr. @ 1,116 fps / 456# KE / PF 184
    That data ^ is based on actual chrono averages for 5 shots out of my pistols
    Power Factor (PF) is a calculation that can be use to compare recoil, and in my example it is dircetly comparable since the pistols are the same size and the ammo is equivalent too.
     
  20. barth

    barth six barrels

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    I use me actually shooting the gun to determine felt recoil - LOL!
    Plus the platform being fired from is huge.
    Ballistics by the inch and other calculations like Power Factor
    are interesting attempts at estimating things with a formula.
    The results range from good to you've got to be kidding.
    A chronograph of that specific load in that specific gun is all I'm interested in. Felt recoil means somebody has to feel it - Me.
    It is a perception and perceptions vary.

    I've fired all three of those rounds from the same G27
    and don't agree with the PF (*&(*(( at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012