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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I finally got to load up my first .223 rounds on the 650. I have about 10k pistol rounds on it, but this is a new learning experience for me. One thing I noticed is a couple cases that came through, that upon bullet seating, the case mouth was slightly dented which resulted in me having to remove that case from the press. I also noticed even while setting boat tail bullets on the case, they weren't the easiest to keep upright sometimes.

I'm assuming during my post-sizing tumble, that some of the cases are maybe getting beat up a little bit on the case mouth since I don't know why else it might be happening. I'm wondering if an M die could help me out here for both reasons of straightening any errant case mouths out before seating and to help align the bullet in the case mouth easier. I will find use for it either way as I'll be buying a RT1500 in the future and will use it after the trim station.

Assuming the M die would be useful to use on my loading toolhead, my question is would it be better to put it on station 1 or 3? My station 1 currently has a universal decapper and 3 is empty. My concern with station 3 is if the die grabs the brass and jerks the case on the way out, thus throwing powder out of the case which I do not want. I have also read some M die users to claim their SD's to drop to single digits since the die uniforms the neck tension. That would be a bonus if true, but is not my main concern.

So my main questions to the progressive users are:
M die helpful on my loading toolhead?
If so, would station 1 or 3 be the better place for it, or does it matter?
Thanks to all.
 

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Whenever I have had a problem with denting case mouths on a progressive or turret press it’s always been an alignment issue.

I would double check your indexing alignment. If you over or under rotate just a smidge you will slam the case mouth into the bottom of the die causing the damage, but that will often be enough to then bump it into alignment so it’s harder to notice.

Progressive presses have a lot of power to ensure smooth operation with so many actions taking place at once. It’s easy to not feel when something is off.

I used a Pro 1000 that would inertia over rotate if you didn’t operate the lever at a consistent pace. Drive me nuts until I figured out how she wanted to be run.

I have never had a case go in the tumbler round and come out dented.
 

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I have one or two 22 cal M dies, but I only use them for an esoteric purpose.

I would look to uproot the underlying cause of case mouths getting out of round before going with the bandaid approach. I did as you are asking about and included as a station to true up case mouths. I don't use a 650, so in my case it was station 2. I then figured out how to keep my case mouths round and rendered the issue moot.

One caution about the 22 cal M die. If the case isn't perfectly square and aligned going into the die, it will buckle the edge of the case mouth and ruin it. Counterproductive. With the tiny 22 cal footprint, there's not enough room for a good radius on the end like there is on a handgun expander.

Regarding setting bullets, the RCBS Gold Medal Match seating die transformed my experience loading 223 and those little clumsy bullets. It increased output by probably 1/3 because a bullet can be "placed" while the ram is moving down. No need to use a deft hand to top the case and guide it into the die. Just drop a bullet into the die. It holds the bullet square to the case mouth so it starts STRAIGHT. It is worth every penny!

RCBS recently made some small tweaks and it is ow called the Match Master seating die or something like that.

NOTE: RCBS had a die that looks similar called the "Competition Seating Die." That's NOT the one you want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Whenever I have had a problem with denting case mouths on a progressive or turret press it’s always been an alignment issue.

I would double check your indexing alignment. If you over or under rotate just a smidge you will slam the case mouth into the bottom of the die causing the damage, but that will often be enough to then bump it into alignment so it’s harder to notice.

Progressive presses have a lot of power to ensure smooth operation with so many actions taking place at once. It’s easy to not feel when something is off.

I used a Pro 1000 that would inertia over rotate if you didn’t operate the lever at a consistent pace. Drive me nuts until I figured out how she wanted to be run.

I have never had a case go in the tumbler round and come out dented.
Are you wet tumbling with pins? The only station the mouth could be getting nicked is the decapper that I can think of. It can be tricky getting the cam pin set just right for station 1 and once in awhile I'd have the press stop due to the decapping pin missing the flash hole because the case wasn't inserted far enough.

I have one or two 22 cal M dies, but I only use them for an esoteric purpose.

I would look to uproot the underlying cause of case mouths getting out of round before going with the bandaid approach. I did as you are asking about and included as a station to true up case mouths. I don't use a 650, so in my case it was station 2. I then figured out how to keep my case mouths round and rendered the issue moot.

One caution about the 22 cal M die. If the case isn't perfectly square and aligned going into the die, it will buckle the edge of the case mouth and ruin it. Counterproductive. With the tiny 22 cal footprint, there's not enough room for a good radius on the end like there is on a handgun expander.

Regarding setting bullets, the RCBS Gold Medal Match seating die transformed my experience loading 223 and those little clumsy bullets. It increased output by probably 1/3 because a bullet can be "placed" while the ram is moving down. No need to use a deft hand to top the case and guide it into the die. Just drop a bullet into the die. It holds the bullet square to the case mouth so it starts STRAIGHT. It is worth every penny!

RCBS recently made some small tweaks and it is ow called the Match Master seating die or something like that.

NOTE: RCBS had a die that looks similar called the "Competition Seating Die." That's NOT the one you want.
I'm using Dillon dies at the moment and don't want to have to already invest in another seating die LOL. I have the powder funnels in pistol calibers that put the nice little step in the brass that the bullets snap nicely into when placing a bullet on the case. I was hoping the M die might could provide the same thing.

I know some guys use M dies (or either some type of expander) after the Dillon trimmer since the trimmer leaves the necks tight. But not sure if it's better to do it on station 5 of the brass prep toolhead or on the loading toolhead somewhere.
 

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Are you wet tumbling with pins? The only station the mouth could be getting nicked is the decapper that I can think of. It can be tricky getting the cam pin set just right for station 1 and once in awhile I'd have the press stop due to the decapping pin missing the flash hole because the case wasn't inserted far enough.



I'm using Dillon dies at the moment and don't want to have to already invest in another seating die LOL. I have the powder funnels in pistol calibers that put the nice little step in the brass that the bullets snap nicely into when placing a bullet on the case. I was hoping the M die might could provide the same thing.

I know some guys use M dies (or either some type of expander) after the Dillon trimmer since the trimmer leaves the necks tight. But not sure if it's better to do it on station 5 of the brass prep toolhead or on the loading toolhead somewhere.
Yes, the neck interior diameter (ID) needs to be set. The M die would be THE tool if using the Dillon sizing trim die. It can be set to just set the ID of the necks and, if wanted that M profile flair you described. Might or not need to be closed up with a crimp die. Could also be accomplished by having an expander ball of a sizer set to run in and out of the neck, althoughit won't flair the case mouth. Personally, I find no need to flair 223 cases since I use BT jacketed bullets and the necks have a little interior chamfer.

Yep, I would put the M die on the case prep tool head if there's room. I dry tumble off case lube so station one of the loading die plate has a universal de-capper. But I don't have a Dillon trimmer.
 

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Tumble the loaded rounds after loading to remove the lube for 10- 15 minutes. And no using a vibratory tumble is not going to set off a round and no it does not affect the powder.
 

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Not sure how you are getting dented case mouths. Sizing should leave a round neck, no flaring is required with chamfered case mouth & jacketed bullets. Yes you have to hold the bullet as you seat or go with a seater that has a sliding sleeve like Hornady or a match type with a port like the rcbs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Not sure how you are getting dented case mouths. Sizing should leave a round neck, no flaring is required with chamfered case mouth & jacketed bullets. Yes you have to hold the bullet as you seat or go with a seater that has a sliding sleeve like Hornady or a match type with a port like the rcbs.
Out of 120 rounds, I think there were maybe 2 that had an imperfection bad enough that a bullet couldn't be seated. I've heard some people say it can happen from tumbling with pins or very well could be from a misalignment in station 1 with the decapping die. I'm not sure if a decapper is completely necessary using pins to tumble as it is.

I believe the M die can be setup to just open the case mouth without putting any flare, but I'll be using the die anyway whenever I get a Dillon trimmer. Gives me something to play around with at least.
 

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I believe the M die can be setup to just open the case mouth without putting any flare...
Yes. The expander shank is quite long. Easy to keep the stem turned out enough to avoid flaring the case mouth.

The 22 cal M expander assembly is on the left below. There is a line part way up that shows the depth I used. Way up the shank you can sort of make out the slightly visible M step below the obvious shoulder of the expander.

 
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