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12 ga or 30-30

Discussion in 'Hunting, Fishing & Camping' started by homer111, Jun 20, 2004.

  1. homer111

    homer111

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    for brown or black bear 12 ga slug or 30-30 with 170 sp
     
  2. noway

    noway

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    Another bear thread

    A 12ga slugs (sabot or rifled) is alot bigger and heavier than any typical 30-30 loading and offers the same or more energy. So I would use a 12ga and "appropiate" slug type for the bear and not worry about it. I wouldn't use a soft point load in a 30-30 on a Brown bear. 30-30s are deer calibers and 12ga slugs are for upwards/big game animals ( IMHO ).


    Both would be okay if needed in a emergency, but since I have no Brown bears in my area outside of a zoon and will never encounter a brown bear , I don't worry about. ;)
     

  3. A_Swede_17_1911

    A_Swede_17_1911

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    are you talking like brown bears such as Kodiaks, and Grizzleys?, or cinnimon colored black bears? I wouldnt use either but look for a Marlin chambered in .35 Remington, but both the 12 gauge and the 30-30 would be good for bears from a treestand or close distances under 150yards. If you only had a choice between the 12 and the 30-30 i would chose the 30-30 and make good shots.
     
  4. TScottW99

    TScottW99 NRA Life Member

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    If the twelve guage had a rifled barrel and I had no other choice then the 12 guage. Some of the new saboted slug loads are quite excellent.
     
  5. tree house

    tree house

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    If you are talking brown bear as in kodiak/grizzly, then you might just as well use a slingshot as a 12 gauge or a .30/.30.

    Yes, a 12 gauge slug is a big piece of lead but the energy it carries is not in the same league as magnum caliber rifles. The .30-30 is not much better.

    Here are some sample ballistics to show just how inferior a 12 gauge slug and .30-.30 are compared to a magnum rifle caliber.

    Energy at 100 yds:

    12g slug 490g = 1000-1200 ft lbs
    30/30 170g = 1218 ft lbs
    .300 win mag 180 g = 3000 ft lbs


    for black bear a 12g or 30/30 would be fine. whichever one you shoot best. for brown bear, you need to get a new gun unless you have a death wish.
     
  6. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    the 12 is fine for a back up weapon, but anyone who goes looking for a bear with just a 12 is a little nutsy
     
  7. Michigun

    Michigun Miss Michigan?

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    They kill them with bows & arrows you know... I'd pick the 12-gauge myself before I’d use a 30-30 for anything. (I assume we're talking about 100 yards or less?)

    Waaaay too many big black bears killed here in Michigan with 12-gauges (slugs & sabots) to ignore.

    After several black bear killings with both rifles & 12-gauges my brother-in-law says he’ll take the 12-gauge every time. This is with Michigan UP hunting however & you’d be lucky to get a 30-yard shot. You can’t get much more penetration then thru & thru… even if your “old-styled” slug doesn’t expand you still have ¾” hole. Through a sabot in there & you’re killing even better.

    Want an example of what a modern 12-gauge can bring down? How about this 1,200+ pound Buffalo I took a little while back… none of the magnum rifles out there that day could boast the “1 shot drop” I got:
     
  8. homer111

    homer111

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    NOT GRIZZLEYS OR KODIAKS . HAVE 12GA 30-30 & 44 MAG HAND GUN WANT TO ONLEY TAKE ONE WHEN OUT IN WOODS TO HAVE IN CAMP SHOTS AT LEST THEN 40 FT ?
     
  9. noway

    noway

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    {Want an example of what a modern 12-gauge can bring down? How about this 1,200+ pound Buffalo I took a little while back… none of the magnum rifles out there that day could boast the “1 shot drop” I got:}

    a very good example as to what a 12ga with the proper loading can do.


    as far as the nutsy statement here's a photo of a Grizzly taken with a bow.

    http://www.threeriversarchery.com/interactive/getgamephotos.cfm?gameid=9

    It's funny how Indian and early settlers have been taking and protecting themselves from these dangerous animals for many many years with spears/sticks/arrows and now we question if a 12ga or 30-30 are adequate for a bear. ;g
     
  10. Michigun

    Michigun Miss Michigan?

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    Exactly!

    noway gets it.

    ^c
     
  11. Michigun

    Michigun Miss Michigan?

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    Not the largest black bear ever killed here in MI (taken by one of my buddies) with a bow, but this black only made it 25 yards tops.
     
  12. kenny31

    kenny31 Fonzi

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    30/30 will do just fine. Keep your shots within reason and don't fall for that "break the shoulder" BS. Make a good shot in the vitals and go get the meat. You MIGHT want to go to wally world and buy some decent ammo like silvertips or something. But I've killed them with 150g core-locts.

    good luck

    ken
     
  13. akbound

    akbound

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    Hi homer111,

    For black bears either a 12 gauge with slugs or a .30-30 (with decent controlled expansion bullets) are more than adequate assuming range limitations and good shot placement. If you are talking about Brown Bears as in Grizzlies and Brownies a .30-30 is decidely light though they have been killed with them. Within its range limitation a 12 gauge loaded with Brenekke Magnum slugs are fine. Many a northern camp use 12 gauges loaded with Brenekkes for exactly that.

    The Foster type slugs are "soft" lead and will not insure adequate penetration on really large animals. Particularly if heavy bone is encountered. Brenekkes are cast of harder alloy and will penetrate on large game. They have even been successfully used on Cape Buffalo in Africa and will certainly work well for defensive camp use against bears. Brenekkes can be had in either 2 3/4" or 3" magnum slugs. If your gun is chambered for 2 3/4" then obtain and test group fire the appropriate length Brenekkes. They can also be had for smooth bore or rifled bored shotguns. Buy the one for your particular gun and barrel combination. Just make sure you know where point of aim is for that load in your gun.

    Hope this helps and good luck!

    Dave
     
  14. noway

    noway

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    This is what I can do to a bear at 100yrds with 12ga slug weighing 1.125oz.

    As far as a Foster not working, I know of numerous people that have taken big bears ( black) singles shot with their 12ga and w/fosters, and If the same people can shot and kill a Brown Bear with a simple muzzleloader under 50yrds firing a .50 cal leadball ( yep unbeliveable ) then I think a bigger heavier 12ga rifle foster slugs would do fine if you hit the bear in the right spot . If we are sitting here debating that a 30-30 would be effective then a much bigger heavier projectile would work just find.

    The typical avg size for a North Amercian boar brown bear is 800lbs and the sows are much less. Just because it's a brown bear it is more bigger and wider but it can be killed.

    Like I said, before the early american settlers where killing these bears with less efffective weapons and ammo and I'm 100% sure Brenneke slugs wheren't available at the local trading post if you know what I mean. ;)

    but hey that's just my opinion.
     
  15. noway

    noway

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    oops here the Brenneke in a 1 1/8oz at 100yrds
     
  16. akbound

    akbound

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    Hi noway,

    There is no doubt that Foster style slugs can, and will, kill grizzlies and Browns. The question that should be asked though is how certain is the process, and would you like to trust your life to that possibility?

    When a shot can be picked the foster will penetrate sufficiently to cause a lethal wound. My concern would be, how certain are they to penetrate either the skull or through a front shoulder into the chest cavity from a full frontal shot presentation. In that situation I'd much rather have a Brenekke.

    A friend of mine cleanly harvasted a young bull moose with a .50 caliber patched round ball over what I believe was 100 grains of FFg. The ball took out a rib on the way in and was recovered inside the ribcage on the far side of the chest. The bull stood for a few moments and fell over.

    There was recently a case in western United States of a man that heard a ruckus in his hen house early one morning and grabbed a .410 and number 6 shot, believing it to be raccoons. When he reached the pen two grizzly cubs came bawling out of the coop past him followed by a sow that weighed between 300-400 pounds. He fired once as she was nearly on him and she dropped at his feet. She was so close that the wad was imbedded in her. The shot string entered an eye, went into the brain, killing her instantly.

    There was another instance of a circus elephant that was killed by a .22 revolver when it accidently discharged. And many instances of native americans in the far north regularly killing polar bears with .222's, .30-30's, and more recently .223's. Frontiersmen frequently killed large and dangerous game with muzzle loading round ball projectiles. Just as native americans killed the same animals with lances, spears, arrows, and probably knives and stones.

    There is no doubt that nearly any animal can be stopped, or killed when circumstances are good. But when I'm planning for the possibility of an occurrence I prefer to allow for less than good circumstances. Considering the relatively low cost of Brenekke slugs, their easy availability, and their proven performance, I'd much rather use them then take chances with foster style slugs. At least for protection from large and, or heavy, dangerous animals.

    Oh, I'd never intentionally choose a .30-30 for that purpose either!

    Dave
     
  17. noway

    noway

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    fair enough..

    On my current job, one of our board member is a big time bear hunter. He supposely took every species of bear in the world minus the Polar. He also has a den and office full of bear mounts, claws and pelts. One of the weirdest experience I even had the pleasure to experience is walking on a full laid out Brown bear pelt that he has as the throw rug in his office.;)


    he talks about him and his father shooting and killing Brown Bear with a muzzleloader, handguns and shotguns and want to beat the world record for the hunting of a Brown/Grizzly with a muzzleloader. IIRC the biggest bear taken on record by a singleshot muzzleloader is like close to 1500lbs.


    yep this guy has some serious cojones when it comes to killing bears.
     
  18. DownRiver

    DownRiver

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    c'mon michigun...there is NO WAY you killed that buffalo with one shot from your shotgun.....









    ......it was one shot with the pistol right!!;f haha

    p.s. where did you do that hunt?
     
  19. Washington D.C.

    Washington D.C.

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    I've seen problems with 150 grain 30-30 bullets staying together,even in white tail.In 30-30 I would have to go with a 170 grain bullet and I prefer the Nosler Partition.A 12 gauge slug can bring down some big animals including bears.I like to hunt bears from a bit farther away than for what these two weapons are good.For protection at stort distances either one is much better than a handgun.
     
  20. 147 Grain

    147 Grain

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    Use Brenneke 12-gauge slugs for the first choice and 30-30 Federal Premium 170-gr. Partitions as second option.