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Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Big Bird, Nov 13, 2012.
Someone's feelings are going to get hurt, and I'm telling Santa about it!
So when does the ref blow the whistle for an official "time out" in the middle of real combat, to adjust for "different physical standards"?
From the article...
"...and the drive to expand service options for women has largely been replaced with a rearguard action to keep existing gains from being lost, in the face of both increased pressure from the religious establishment for greater separation of the sexes in the army and a rise in the number of women claiming a religious exemption from service."
Yes, Israel too has to deal with its equivalent of the "religious right".
That doesn't change the fact that the IDF officially agrees with expanding the roles for women in combat, largely due to the success of fully integrated, combat infantry units like the Caracal Battallion, which is 60-70% female and has served with distinction in a number of front-line combat ops in the last decade.
The key is "different", not "lesser" standards. Women have other physical traits such as overall better hand-eye coordination (important in shooting small arms) and higher general resistance to severe pain (important in all manner of military situations).
In modern combat, it isn't all about upper body strength.
Also from the article:
My question stands unanswered.
You said that "Women may not have the upper body strength that most men have, and they may need some different physical standards as a result,...."
So when, in combat, do you do that?
The two quotes you added are opinions from ONE committee member.
The Caracal Battallion and its success are a matter of record that can't be denied.
In modern combat, a fight is more often decided by reaction time and hand-eye coordination than by sheer strength. To use your own gambit, should someone call "time out" in a firefight to wait for the slower male soldier with lesser fine motor skills to draw aim and accurately fire at a threat?
But I'd sure expect him to have the upper body strength to haul my shot up, pasty white ass out of the line of fire.
Could we not look to women cops as an example?
According to this article:
Border shootout proves mettle of mixed-gender IDF unit
The Caracal battalion, comprised of 60 percent women, patrols the volatile Israeli-Egyptian border
So it appears the unit doesn't have a long combat history.
Being able to "haul your shot up ass" is of little consequence when that same buddy is too slow to react to a sudden threat before it pumps you full of holes in the first place.
Women and men BOTH have respective physical advantages and disadvantages in modern infantry warfare. Dismissing one sex because they can't do as many pushups while ignoring the fact that they are generally faster and have better fine motor coordination when handling weapons is short-sighted, at best.
How long and how many dozens of combat engagements do you feel it takes to prove an infantry unit is effective?
And what of the female sniper units the Russians used in WWII? Were they not engaged long enough and successfully enough in combat to pass your test? Did the SS and Wermacht infantry not constitute a worthy enough opponent for them to prove their mettle against?
OK, maybe a more direct question is in order.
Have you ever been in a position where you've had to use sheer strength to save someone from harm? Do you know what that's like?
It sounds like this unit is engaged in duties more aligned with our Border Patrol, which can obviously be dangerous, but in a different sense than full on combat.
Yes I have, but I have also seen situations where a fraction of a second in reaction time has made the difference between life and death, and I know what THAT is like, too.
Like I said, both sexes have physical advantages and disadvantages in modern combat.
From the female snipers in Russia, to the female Viet Cong and NVA jungle fighters in Vietnam, to the Israeli Caracal Battallion, women have proven themselves in combat too many times across too many battlefields for far too long to seriously question their abilities as fighting infantry.
Where did I state my "feelings" about anything having to do with the combat effectiveness of the Caracal Battalion?
You implied that the battalion has a long history. I stated that it appears the unit doesn't have a long combat history. Nothing more. Nothing less.
What about them?
What is my "test"? Please tell me so I'll know, too.
Where did I say anything about female Soviet snipers, the SS, Wermacht?
Fair enough, but border patrol and security work is the bulk of what the IDF infantry does, save for the very rare occasion when Israel actually invades a neighbor. That being said, the women of the Caracal have performed with distinction every time they have faced an attack. And MAN that must piss off their fundamentalist Islamist adversaries! Imagine being the Jihadist commander that has to go back to his superiors and report that his outfit got its ass handed to it by a bunch of Jewish women!
Physical requirements are there for a reason. Height, weight, eyesight, hearing, color perception ect., how are they any different than having to meet run, strength, swimming, ect, requirements?
If the requirements can't be met, why should the job be open to anyone, man or woman, who can't meet them?
The Caracal are not the only example of successful female infantry solders I have offered up. Apologies if that throwback to an earlier post was a bit out of the blue.