Home > The Armory > Caliber Corner > 10 mm Mag vs. .41 Mag

10 mm Mag vs. .41 Mag

  1. In another thread, several members mention a 10mm Magnum - with which some have actual experience. Naturally, w/o knowing anything about this cartridge (never heard of it until today), I think of the .41 mag.
    Would those who have played with these kindly give us their opinions on both cartridges?

    Thanks.
     
  2. I'm interested too. I imagine they're referring to full power 10mm loads as "magnum" and not another cartridge altogether.
     
  3. 10mm does not even come close to .41 magnum ballistics.
     
  4. In the thread about the .44 special GP100, someone posted some pictures that showed (I thought) a longer casing. There was also talk of just seating bullets further out.
     
  5. They didn't seem to be talking about your regular 10mm.
     
  6. DT lists 10mm magnum loads. The case is supposed to be longer, sources list it as being 1.255 vs .990 for the normal 10mm.
     
  7. Is DT Double Tap?
     
  8. Can it keep up with my .357 Maximum?
     
  9. Yes DT is Double Tap.
     
  10. I would not qualify as an authority.
     
  11. Thanks. I went to their site and found a couple loads to compare.
    10mm Mag - 230gr at 1,250 f/s... vs. ....41 Mag - 250gr at 1,370 f/s
    It seems to me there's really no comparison. The 10mm may be a choice if less recoil (same gun) is wanted.
     
  12. I found some DT loads on their site and posted them, but didn't find anything in .357 Max. What do you have to compare with the 10mm Mag load?
     
  13. The 10mm magnum is a longer case than the 10mm Norma. More powder, more vel. it is pretty much the equal of a 41mag.
     
  14. I just checked Starline brass. They do have 10mm magnum brass. It says theat it is longer than regular 10mm and can not be used in a 10mm automatic. So who makes a gun you can use 10mm magnum in?
     
  15. In the thread I referenced, they were talking about revolvers.
     
  16. It seems the 10mm mag is a revolver round, I just don't see its place in the big picture. I kind of like the 41 mag, have two of them an S&W 58 and a Ruger Blackhawk.
     
  17. The .41 Magnum is to me a very interesting revolver caliber, the same as the .327 Magnum is.

    If I ever decide to own a revolver ...
     
  18. If you compare different calibers and do it right you have to
    compare the best of them all and also use the same barrel
    length.

    Also do you count special high pressure loads that are only for
    special barrels with full support, everything has to be considered.

    When using loads for revolvers as with all guns some guns are
    capable of much more pressure than others.

    With technology we have now you can get more power with
    safe pressure but the the guns can't stand the recoil.

    That is why we have special load data for some guns that is
    not for others in the same caliber.
     
  19. I agree. I, too, have a 58 and it's probably my favorite gun.
     
  20. If I recall correctly, there were some guys that did some work to their S&W 610s and were shooting the 10mm Mag out of them.

    I am a 10mm fan, a bigger .41Mag fan and I have a .414 SuperMag as well. That will wake you up in a hurry.
     
  21. That's the 2nd cartridge (.414 SM) I heard about for the 1st time today. Would you talk about it a bit?
     
  22. The SuperMags (.357, .414, .445) were developed for IMHSA and eventually chambered in Dan Wesson Revolvers. Now they can only be had in customs or T/C barrels. They are basically 0.3" longer cases than .357 Mag, .41Mag and .44 Mag cases developed and tested by Edwin Gates in the 1970s. He also tested .50 and .60 SuperMags.

    Mine is a 10" Encore barrel and I shoot 265g WLN-GCs at about 1550 fps. Also some 210g at 1700 or so. I have shot several head of big game with it and a few IHMSA matches as well. Very impressive from a handgun.
     
  23. Taking some already impressive cartridges a step further.

    Thanks.
     
  24. I know what a 10mm Magnum is but I don't have any experience with it. I did have a few .41 Magnums not that long ago, my take is that the .41 Mag will definitely best a 10mm Magnum.

    The problem with the 10mm Magnum is that at the end of the day, you're essentially using .40 S&W bullets just pushed faster, the reason that's bad is that those bullets really aren't designed for such velocities. The .41 Mag is different altogether, even though bullet selection is small, at least the bullets are designed for it.

    Looking over my handload data, from a 7.5" Super Blackhawk the most powerful .41 Mag I loaded was a 265gr hardcast that averaged around 1525 fps. No 10mm will come close, not even a 10mm Mag.
     
  25. If using a 10mm mag for hunting, most would go wnlfp, 200-220gr. Then you are right in there with a 41mag. I have a 57, wish i had also gotten a 58.
     
  26. I haven't shot any of my .41s in years. Used to be my favorite caliber out of the standard mag triumvirate when I first started BG pistol hunting 40+ years ago. Then one day I bought a used .45 Colt saa and, with a little judicious reloading, found out what manageable killing power was all about.
     
  27. "triumpherate": What a great word for those three. I like it.
     
  28. The .41 Magnum is a powerful revolver cartridge ... comparable to the 44 Magnum
    A full power 41 Mag is more for hunting and animal defense .
    A reduced power round was designed for LE ... But the draw back was N sized framed revolvers ..
    The LE 41 Magnum designed cartridge is comparable to a full power 10mm ..
     
  29. If that's the fact, Jack, if I ever consider a dedicated woods gun I will shop around for a G-29.
     
  30. image.jpeg image.jpeg

    Thats what I did ...
     
  31. True.
     
  32. Everything depends on case capacity. A .308 has 56 gr H2O case capacity. A 30-06 has 68 gr H2O case capacity. A .308 can drive lighter 150 grain bullets almost as fast as a 30-06, but nowhere near as fast with 180 grain bullets.

    Similarly a 10mm auto develops 1400 fps 675 ft lb with a 155 grain bullet while the 150 grain load also from from doubletap, in the .40 S&W comes within 100 fps at 1317fps 580 ft/lbs and the 135 grain bullet comes closer yet in terms of velocity, 1375fps, but it's a trade-off between bullet weight, mass, and more impressive numbers on the Chronograph.

    A similar relationship exists between the standard 10mm auto and the 10mm MAGNUM auto, which is essentially a rimless 41 magnum but with a .035 inch shorter case.

    .40 S&W: case length .850 case capacity 19.3 gr H2O
    10mm auto: case length .990 case capacity 24.1 gr H2O
    10mm magnum: case length 1.255 case capacity 29 gr. H20 approximate
    .41 Magnum: case length 1.290 case capacity 31 gr. H20 approximate
    .44 Magnum case capacity 38.6 gr H2O
     
  33. I see a couple issues with the 10mm mag, each can be worked around but I don't see a point when the 41 mag is already good to go.

    The first issue I see with the 10mm mag revolver is the rimless case design. When I start leaning on the pressures I need a good crimp and the 10mm mag unless using moon clips will require a taper crimp. Roll crimps are stronger leading to better ignition and they are better at keeping the other rounds bullets in place during recoil. Even my heavy 357 loads will jump crimp without a solid roll crimp. Moon clips can be used to allow for a roll crimp but that's just something additional needed when the 41 doesn't have that issue. The 41 when loaded full is a frisky little round even in a big frame gun when you get 300gr bullet at over 1300fps and you will need that solid crimp.

    The other issue that has already been stated is bullets. Most 40 cal bullets are maxed out with 10mm velocities. Some cast bullets could be pushed harder i'm sure but the jhp 10mm bullets would be hard pressed to maintain integrity at higher velocities. The other issues with the bullets is the lack of a crimp groove to work with the needed roll crimp stated above. One could size down 41 mag bullets or have a custom mold made to have a crimp groove but that is again another step needed to get the 10mm mag to come close to the 41.
     
  34. In a revolver, there isn't much point to the !0mm mag unless you happen to have one of those Smith & Wesson model 610 revolvers chambered for the 40 S&W and 10mm Auto and you want to get even more versatility out of it. The moon clips solve both the rimless case problem along with the roll crimp problem at the same time.

    As far as the bullet construction problem, I think a 200 grain Hornady XTP could withstand a little added velocity and even if you had to throttle it down halfway between what a 41 magnum can do and what a 10mm auto can do, you'd still be ahead of the game and have more than enough raw power for any self-defense scenerio you were likely to encounter. Here is a video where they test the Underwoods 10mm auto load out of a G20 that does `1250 fps and expands in a nice mushroom to a large .670 diameter:



    The biggest problem I see with the 10mm mag is that it's strictly a revolver cartridge unless you happen to have one of the rare and tempermental AMT/IAI pistols and could never be chambered in a Glock because it has a max OAL of 1.555 while the 10mm auto has a an OAL of 1.260 which is all the magazine will accommodate. But then there's the 40 super, which can be loaded to the same OAL as the 10mm but in a fatter bottleneck case, and is loaded to 1400fps with a 200 gr XTP by Underwood.

    And since the 40 super is based on the 45 ACP case head size, the 40 Super conversion barrels have an outside diameter made for a G21. I don't have the case capacity of the 40 super to compare to that of the 10 mm mag but I would estimate that it probably comes fairly close, and if underwood feels comfortable in pushing 200 grain XTP's to 1400 FPS in the 40 Super, maybe that's good news for anyone who want's to re-chamber their S&W 610 to 10mm mag and drive the 200 grain XTP's to high velocities.
     
  35. If you compare a 2" short barreled .41 Mag revolver to a Glock 20 10mm, you will have similar performance.

    I know the OP was referring to the magnum 10mm cartridge, and not the standard 10mm, but for a short barreled gun there probably isn't an advantage.

    In this thread, post 43 at the bottom, I chronographed 41 mag out of a short barreled S&W revolver: http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/41-magnum-bullets-in-a-10mm/43/ .

    That tests shows that 41 magnum from a short barrel is close to 10mm from the same "size" gun. When I say size, I mean overall size, and not barrel length. A 2" snubby 41 mag revolver is basically the same size as a Glock 20, but the revolver is a little wider.
     
  36. I wouldn't bet my life on it but I think the G20 and G21 have the same OD barrel, but the chamber is larger on the G21 the best I can remember.
     
  37. Didn't Wildey market a 10mm Magnum...Or is this the same thing?
     
  38. First of all, the majority of 41 magnums do not have short barrels and the Night guard model is fairly rare and I can't find it in the current S&W line-up. Secondly, the velocity differential is only true of certain loads. With the 175 gr. silvertip 10 mm load, My Glock 20 develops higher velocities than my model 58 Smith & Wesson 4 inch barrel with the 175 gr. 41 mag silvertip. The Winchester silvertip loads for both 41 and 44 magnum are both relatively low-velocity loads in both those calibers, but in 10mm, the silvertip load is faster than the Hornady, federal, PMC or Remington load in the same 175-180gr weight.

    But with the heavier bullet loads the 41 magnum comes close to the 44 magnum even out of a shorter barrel and is capable of a lot more power than the 10mm can produce with heavier bullets. The average velocity loss or gain is 50 fps per barrel inch and the 41 magnum with bullets weighing 220 grains up to 250 grains can launch those bullet weights at more than 200 fps faster than the 10mm can and 230 grains is about the limit for the 10mm because a 250 grain bullet would have to be seated so deep in the case to fit in the magazine that there wouldn't be enough room for very much powder.

    Glock Talk is supposed to be publishing an article of mine in the articles section next week that will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the 41 magnum (including a comparison to the 10mm) but were afraid to ask. The 41 magnum and I go way back and I'm also a huge fan of the 10mm and the Glocks 20 and 29.
     
  39. You can make that bet, I use the 10mm barrel
    in my G21 all the time, works just fine.
     
  40. I never knew that, but I've heard that using 10mm barrels (and I always wrongly assumed that they were conversion barrels) in the 21 sometimes had extraction problems with the case head and rim of the 10mm being smaller than the 45 and that KKM sold a complete "Kit" with their 10mm barrels meant to be used in the model that had a special extractor and spring that would work with both cartridges.

    So I wonder if they sell the extractor and spring without the barrel.

    I have a 40-to-9 KKM conversion barrel for my G23 that works perfectly with my g19 mags AND my "G23" is actually a G19 frame with a G23 slide and I didn't change ejectors on it and it functions with both 40 and 357 sig.

    So does this mean I could put a G21 45 ACP barrel in my G20 and fire 45 ACP with G21 mags?
     
  41. No, just the barrel O.D. Is the same between the 20 and 21; the square chamber is larger on the 21.Lone Wolf doesn't even make a 10mm conversion barrel for the 21 which means a 20 barrel or Lone Wolf G20 has to be used.
     
  42. The Barrels on my G20 and G21 are the same external size except for the tang/hood at the rear that mates with the breechface cutout.
     
  43. So I would guess they are not interchangeable either way because the chamber end of a G21 barrel would be too big at the breech end to fit in a G20 slide and a G20 barrel would be too small of a fit in the G21 slide unless they were the same dimensions front to back.

    What I want to know is will a Glock 21 barrel work in my Glock 20? It seems like most people are ,more interested on putting a 120mm barrel in their 45 than there are people who want to put a 45 barrel in their 10mm.

    And it doesn't even seem like anyone makes a 45 barrel to go into a G20, so I suspect that it isn't possible.
     
  44. The hood is too big on the 45 barrel to work in
    the g20.

    I have done most of what is on these threads, they
    will answer your questions.

    https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/grt45-archive.1421823/#post-22283466

    https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/glock-30-30sf-30s-information.1421425/

    Barrel manufacturer KKM recommends some minor gunsmith work on the stock .45 extractor that enables it to function more reliably for 10mm and continue to work for 45ACP. It involves removing no more than 0.020" from the 'fitting pad' on the inside of the .45 LCI extractor (see photo below) allowing it to travel closer to the axis of the bore and make solid contact with the 10mm case. Some who have studied this .45 extractor modification believe it functions better than the option of installing a stock 10mm extractor. It is best to modify a spare extractor in case of a problem. As material is filed from the fitting pad, test for proper tension of the extractor against a cartridge. With the slide removed from the frame, insert an empty 10mm case or dummy round underneath the extractor claw from the bottom of the slide. There should be some measurable tension being applied by the extractor’s vertical engagement edge to the cartridge. A dummy round should remain suspended by the inward force of the extractor. KKM can be contacted for advice and instructions before attempting this modification at (775) 246-5444

    [​IMG]

    As versatile as the g20 is the g21 is more so.

    All my after market barrels for the g20 work
    in my g21, even the 9mm, with that extractor
    mod, the modded ext even works with the
    45/460 Rowland too.

    The g21 is the most versatile and powerful Glock.
     
  45. No, the 10mm magnum is the same cartridge length as .41 and .44 magnum: it's a bit more than 1/4" longer than 10mm auto
     
  46. The 10mm magnum was originally developed for the AMT Automag IV which was a large, single action semi-automatic handgun.

    It was created by Harry Sanford, who also invented the original 44 Automag which used cut-down rimless 308 cases. The later Automags I, II, III, IV an V were a different design than the original Automag and more closely resembled a 1911 but with a slide mounted safety.

    The original 44 automag used a rotary bolt lockup similar to an AR15.

    AMT had a bad reputation for quality control. A friend of mine, a gunsmith in Southern California, once visited the AMT manufacturing facility and witnessed assembly line workers constantly adjusting the CNC settings on the machinery.

    And because most of these workers were of Hispanic decent, my friend always referred to AMT as "Amateur Mexican Technology".

    The Automag IV was the only semi-auto that was ever chambered for the 10mm magnum. The 10mm magnum is really only a viable cartridge for 10mm AUTO chambered revolvers that can be reamed out for 10mm Magnum and loaded to 41 magnum ballistics.
     

  47. Yes, I have a S&W 610 that is reamed to 10mm magnum. That revolver can now shoot .40 S&W, 10mm, and 10mm magnum.