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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by hogfish, Jan 13, 2017.
Thanks, I did not know that. DT lists their ammo as revolver loads.
If I recall correctly, there were some guys that did some work to their S&W 610s and were shooting the 10mm Mag out of them.
I am a 10mm fan, a bigger .41Mag fan and I have a .414 SuperMag as well. That will wake you up in a hurry.
That's the 2nd cartridge (.414 SM) I heard about for the 1st time today. Would you talk about it a bit?
The SuperMags (.357, .414, .445) were developed for IMHSA and eventually chambered in Dan Wesson Revolvers. Now they can only be had in customs or T/C barrels. They are basically 0.3" longer cases than .357 Mag, .41Mag and .44 Mag cases developed and tested by Edwin Gates in the 1970s. He also tested .50 and .60 SuperMags.
Mine is a 10" Encore barrel and I shoot 265g WLN-GCs at about 1550 fps. Also some 210g at 1700 or so. I have shot several head of big game with it and a few IHMSA matches as well. Very impressive from a handgun.
Taking some already impressive cartridges a step further.
I know what a 10mm Magnum is but I don't have any experience with it. I did have a few .41 Magnums not that long ago, my take is that the .41 Mag will definitely best a 10mm Magnum.
The problem with the 10mm Magnum is that at the end of the day, you're essentially using .40 S&W bullets just pushed faster, the reason that's bad is that those bullets really aren't designed for such velocities. The .41 Mag is different altogether, even though bullet selection is small, at least the bullets are designed for it.
Looking over my handload data, from a 7.5" Super Blackhawk the most powerful .41 Mag I loaded was a 265gr hardcast that averaged around 1525 fps. No 10mm will come close, not even a 10mm Mag.
If using a 10mm mag for hunting, most would go wnlfp, 200-220gr. Then you are right in there with a 41mag. I have a 57, wish i had also gotten a 58.
I haven't shot any of my .41s in years. Used to be my favorite caliber out of the standard mag triumvirate when I first started BG pistol hunting 40+ years ago. Then one day I bought a used .45 Colt saa and, with a little judicious reloading, found out what manageable killing power was all about.
From Starline Brass:
10MM Mag Brass (Large Pistol primer)
10mm Magnum, 10mm Magnum Brass, 10 Mag Brass, 10mm Mag Brass
1.242 - 1.248 O.A.L.
The 10MM Magnum Brass is a heavy duty, lengthened 10MM Auto. CANNOT BE USED IN STANDARD 10MM PISTOL.
• 500 ($127.00)
• 1000 ($217.00)
Status: Available Now
"triumpherate": What a great word for those three. I like it.
The .41 Magnum is a powerful revolver cartridge ... comparable to the 44 Magnum
A full power 41 Mag is more for hunting and animal defense .
A reduced power round was designed for LE ... But the draw back was N sized framed revolvers ..
The LE 41 Magnum designed cartridge is comparable to a full power 10mm ..
If that's the fact, Jack, if I ever consider a dedicated woods gun I will shop around for a G-29.
Thats what I did ...
Everything depends on case capacity. A .308 has 56 gr H2O case capacity. A 30-06 has 68 gr H2O case capacity. A .308 can drive lighter 150 grain bullets almost as fast as a 30-06, but nowhere near as fast with 180 grain bullets.
Similarly a 10mm auto develops 1400 fps 675 ft lb with a 155 grain bullet while the 150 grain load also from from doubletap, in the .40 S&W comes within 100 fps at 1317fps 580 ft/lbs and the 135 grain bullet comes closer yet in terms of velocity, 1375fps, but it's a trade-off between bullet weight, mass, and more impressive numbers on the Chronograph.
A similar relationship exists between the standard 10mm auto and the 10mm MAGNUM auto, which is essentially a rimless 41 magnum but with a .035 inch shorter case.
.40 S&W: case length .850 case capacity 19.3 gr H2O
10mm auto: case length .990 case capacity 24.1 gr H2O
10mm magnum: case length 1.255 case capacity 29 gr. H20 approximate
.41 Magnum: case length 1.290 case capacity 31 gr. H20 approximate
.44 Magnum case capacity 38.6 gr H2O
I see a couple issues with the 10mm mag, each can be worked around but I don't see a point when the 41 mag is already good to go.
The first issue I see with the 10mm mag revolver is the rimless case design. When I start leaning on the pressures I need a good crimp and the 10mm mag unless using moon clips will require a taper crimp. Roll crimps are stronger leading to better ignition and they are better at keeping the other rounds bullets in place during recoil. Even my heavy 357 loads will jump crimp without a solid roll crimp. Moon clips can be used to allow for a roll crimp but that's just something additional needed when the 41 doesn't have that issue. The 41 when loaded full is a frisky little round even in a big frame gun when you get 300gr bullet at over 1300fps and you will need that solid crimp.
The other issue that has already been stated is bullets. Most 40 cal bullets are maxed out with 10mm velocities. Some cast bullets could be pushed harder i'm sure but the jhp 10mm bullets would be hard pressed to maintain integrity at higher velocities. The other issues with the bullets is the lack of a crimp groove to work with the needed roll crimp stated above. One could size down 41 mag bullets or have a custom mold made to have a crimp groove but that is again another step needed to get the 10mm mag to come close to the 41.
In a revolver, there isn't much point to the !0mm mag unless you happen to have one of those Smith & Wesson model 610 revolvers chambered for the 40 S&W and 10mm Auto and you want to get even more versatility out of it. The moon clips solve both the rimless case problem along with the roll crimp problem at the same time.
As far as the bullet construction problem, I think a 200 grain Hornady XTP could withstand a little added velocity and even if you had to throttle it down halfway between what a 41 magnum can do and what a 10mm auto can do, you'd still be ahead of the game and have more than enough raw power for any self-defense scenerio you were likely to encounter. Here is a video where they test the Underwoods 10mm auto load out of a G20 that does `1250 fps and expands in a nice mushroom to a large .670 diameter:
The biggest problem I see with the 10mm mag is that it's strictly a revolver cartridge unless you happen to have one of the rare and tempermental AMT/IAI pistols and could never be chambered in a Glock because it has a max OAL of 1.555 while the 10mm auto has a an OAL of 1.260 which is all the magazine will accommodate. But then there's the 40 super, which can be loaded to the same OAL as the 10mm but in a fatter bottleneck case, and is loaded to 1400fps with a 200 gr XTP by Underwood.
And since the 40 super is based on the 45 ACP case head size, the 40 Super conversion barrels have an outside diameter made for a G21. I don't have the case capacity of the 40 super to compare to that of the 10 mm mag but I would estimate that it probably comes fairly close, and if underwood feels comfortable in pushing 200 grain XTP's to 1400 FPS in the 40 Super, maybe that's good news for anyone who want's to re-chamber their S&W 610 to 10mm mag and drive the 200 grain XTP's to high velocities.
If you compare a 2" short barreled .41 Mag revolver to a Glock 20 10mm, you will have similar performance.
I know the OP was referring to the magnum 10mm cartridge, and not the standard 10mm, but for a short barreled gun there probably isn't an advantage.
In this thread, post 43 at the bottom, I chronographed 41 mag out of a short barreled S&W revolver: http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/41-magnum-bullets-in-a-10mm/43/ .
That tests shows that 41 magnum from a short barrel is close to 10mm from the same "size" gun. When I say size, I mean overall size, and not barrel length. A 2" snubby 41 mag revolver is basically the same size as a Glock 20, but the revolver is a little wider.
I wouldn't bet my life on it but I think the G20 and G21 have the same OD barrel, but the chamber is larger on the G21 the best I can remember.
Didn't Wildey market a 10mm Magnum...Or is this the same thing?