“Could you kill someone?”

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Hoochrunners, May 17, 2020.

  1. Sechott

    Sechott

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    I agree, interesting times= no less than 13 rounds, plus extra magazines. I like something more than 9x19, I've been carrying a 357Sig P229 lately.
     
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  2. NoStress

    NoStress

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    Or freeze for different reasons. If one's gun skills are second nature they can hopefully make up for other deficiencies.
    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/freeze-response.htm

    There is a lot of good information on his site for everyone but be prepared for a read. If people would put as much effort into educating themselves as they do shooting they might not have to shoot a bad guy targeting them. Most don't seem to realize other aspects of self defense can be just as important, and sometimes more so, than shooting or fighting ability. I don't think most have a problem killing someone if need be but there are ways to screw that up that range time wont help with. And most don't have the skill to manipulate a situation so as to avoid killing someone. At any rate there is good info on the site even for those that have some street smarts.
     
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  3. sourdough44

    sourdough44

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    I only shoot people than need a good shooting.
     
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  4. Firecop203

    Firecop203

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    This reminds me of a match I participated in with my oldest son. There were hostage targets and I put my required hits in the target areas, but the ornery part of me surfaced and I decided I’d have some fun.

    I put two rounds in the groin of each hostage target as I went through. As my son was scoring the targets, he looked at me and said “dad, that’s just wrong”. My reply was “do you really think I wouldn’t shoot someone in the nads if you or any other member of our family were being held hostage or threatened?” There is no honor, glory or rules except that my family goes home safe.
     
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  5. snowbird.40

    snowbird.40

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    OP - Excellent topic, lots of interesting responses. Here's mine.

    Before I enlisted in the US Army in December of 1969, two days after I turned 19 and about a month after I learned my number in the lottery was 78, I had never even considered the idea of killing another human being. I'd killed ducks and pheasants for food, but extreme disputes with other boys my age were settled with fists … perhaps resulting in a black eye or a bloody nose.

    For those of us who've been through basic training in services like the army or Marine Corps, I think most of us can relate to the drill sergeant/instructor who tells you at the beginning that the service is going to break you down and turn you into a different person. Inwardly, I just sort of made a mental shrug. I guess I was indifferent to the whole concept. But over the next eight weeks I became convinced that should I wind up in a combat arms MOS doing a tour in Vietnam, I would take another human life in defense of myself and my comrades.

    Fortunately, although I was trained to be an MP sentry dog handler, I never came down on orders for Vietnam; thus, I never served in a combat zone. Instead, I kept a battery of nuclear air defense missiles safe from outside intrusion. In retrospect, it seems a bit bizarre. At the age of 20 I became the senior dog handler/supervisor with six dogs, five other dog handlers, and 18 missiles in my responsibility. What's wrong with this picture?

    Moving right along, I got my first CC permit in 1988 at the age of 37 and I had to revisit my thoughts about taking another human life. It was in that era that I also discovered Col. Grossman's book 'On Killing', and I decided to pry into a high school buddy's experience as an infantry soldier with the First Infantry Division (The Big Red One) in Vietnam for nearly 12 months.

    I'll never forget the look on his face as he told me about the scariest night of his life when his unit was over-run and he said the entire night was spent either shooting or fragging anything that moved outside his fighting hole. When dawn finally broke, Jerry said his hole was surrounded by enemy bodies and two wounded enemy soldiers. He said he didn't know what to do with them, so he shot them dead at point-blank range.

    Out of all the violence he'd dealt out and absorbed, he said the look on the faces of those two men were what haunted him every time he closed his eyes and tried to go to sleep. In the end, he would drink and do enough drugs that he'd pass out without the vision. He was declared 100 percent PTSD disabled and had a massive stroke at the age of 65, which killed him.

    Two things to consider: if you get into a righteous shoot and you wound the perpetrator and he stands trial and serves his time, what are the odds he'll come looking for you when he gets back on the streets? Second, even if you kill that perp and are exonerated without having to stand trial, what are the odds some of his friends or family will seek to extract some revenge.

    So, yeah, stop the threat, but be prepared to pay an additional price down the road. Poopey happens and let's all just hope it doesn't happen to us. It's part of the reason I don't stay out late at night anymore and never go into rowdy bars and other places with a bad reputation. I'm in bed by 9 p.m. most nights, so if trouble finds me, the outcome is on them.
     
  6. fredj338

    fredj338

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    While very good advice, violence today shows up everywhere, anytime. A couple months ago we had some nut job, mid day, common areas of town, go on a killing spree with edged weapons. Even killed an armed secuirty guard. He was fnally arrested by police but unfortunately without being shot. He killed 4 people, wounded I think 6, gas station, donut shop, all places we all would/could be at 3pm. Train, practice, repeat, stay vigilant.
     
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  7. bdcochran

    bdcochran

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    Warning to people who simply parrot "conventional wisdom". Most people are familiar with S.L.A. Marshall's purported research of the willingness of troops to use weapons in WW2. HOWEVER, the guy who assisted him disclosed years later that Marshall made up the story that most guys in combat would not fire their weapons. w.historynet.com/long-dead-hand-s-l-marshall-misleads-historians.htm The reality is that when US troops were in combat, they did shoot. You will shoot too. You will not agonize on how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

    And, stop posting things like "when can I legally kill someone" unless you want some prosecutor doing research on you some day!
     
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  8. 9jeeps

    9jeeps Avatars, no mas.

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    All the above indicates that it might be better to pack a can of Bear Spray. ???
     
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  9. napp32

    napp32

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    Yes we have; but that is a little different than the context of the question asked here.

    The Army (probably other services as well) recognizes that the average person enters service with an inherent hesitancy to take another human life. For that reason, all combat training scenarios are based upon killing the enemy. Even hand to hand combat teaches to kill...not subdue. "Close with and destroy the enemy"..."the spirit of the bayonet is to kill". Anyone who has ever served has probably heard those phrases many times. It is doubtful that any service member remembers being taught to "shoot to wound" or "capture without killing". The very, very rare exception would be when you need a live prisoner for intel purposes.

    My point is that a soldier hears about killing his enemies so often that it never enters his mind to do anything else during an encounter. He is indoctrinated to think and react that way without stopping to think of any alternative. We've all seen movies where the enemy come toward soldiers with hands in the air and is shot down without remorse. That's not just Hollywood, folks.

    I suspect most of the people who have expressed any doubt about the question asked by the OP have never served in a combat arms branch of military service.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  10. cadillacguns

    cadillacguns Millennium Member

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    Bear spray makes YOU taste like you been dipped in hot sauce to the bear, I prefer Glock and Mossberg.
     
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  11. Con43

    Con43

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    Just curious ?, but in your opinion what % of US combat personal would react this way. You seem to imply it is very prevalent attitude.
     
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  12. napp32

    napp32

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    I will begin to answer your question by saying that my opinion doesn't really matter much; because it would be just my opinion and nothing more. I suspect you could get a myriad of percentages from different people depending upon their individual experiences. Wars vary, battles within wars vary, combat zones vary, and attitudes within combat units vary depending upon the aforementioned experiences. I didn't mean to imply that it is a very prevalent attitude in all cases. All I was saying is that the U.S. combat soldier is not always the mister nice guy that many civilians believe.

    The mindset that a combat soldier with years of service has fostered upon him doesn't just go away with the issuance of discharge papers. Keep in mind that I'm not speaking of soldiers who have finished 8 weeks of basic training and the remainder of their service as a clerk typist, cook, or finance specialist. I'm referring to specifically to members of the combat arms.
     
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  13. snowbird.40

    snowbird.40

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    Napp and Cadillac: what a great contribution to the discussion. What you both say rings true. I expect you have been in those situations and had to deal with it. My vision (never realized) was a lot of harsh conditions, weather, water, food, ammunition supplies.

    On this day I can't tell you how much you have earned the respect of your countrymen for doing a dirty job. I probably missed something along the way due to my naivete, but once I crawled under live machine fun fire in basic training and heard that vicious snap of a high-velocity round I was truly scared.

    Thanks to all you veterans, LEOs, First Responders (and, now healthcare employees) and may we honor our brothers and sisters on this day. I will always hold my memories of Jerry in high esteem and only occasionally try to think 'what if' because we shared so many adventures together before he became efficient at what he did in Vietnam.

    I will always remember him and other friends, classmates, and fellow soldiers who, ultimately, died in that 'police action'.
     
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  14. Con43

    Con43

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    Thanks for the reply. Have a good rest of the day.
     
  15. ROGER4314

    ROGER4314 Friends Call Me "Flash"

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    There's not a molecule of my body that thinks it's a good idea to hurt someone else. That being said, I had to defend my life and property many times.

    The worst part of it is that you don't call the shots in a violent confrontation. The Bad Guy decides how far to take the violence and you must be ready to respond to the level that he/she sets.

    If you set a limit on how far you're willing to go to defend your life and family, and the bad guy escalates further, what do you do, then? Have you decided to die, or to sacrifice one of your family members? That's a bad plan! Be prepared to do what ever you need to do to stop the threat!

    Flash
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020