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    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      I have purchased my LAST 22 long rifle. It's been three years since I've seen a bulk pack of ammo on a store shelf. I'm sure 20 people will chime in and say I can mail order all I want for $75 a 500 pack. I used to buy 550 packs for $18. Yep, I'm done! For the COST of 22LR I will at least shoot something I can reload myself.

      I hope you enjoy yours. They WERE fun.
      I hope/believe that ammo will come down in
      price, I already see it now.

      That said the 223 is capable of shooting really
      cheap and accurate.

      Get one of these and go to work,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....or-point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....or-point225-diameter-6-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      You will shoot for around four to five cents a shot,
      the primer is the most costly part, around three
      cents each.

      I have had good accuracy, 3/8'' at 34 yds, with as
      little as two grains of powder and also up to 2000
      fps with using a GC on the boolit and around 7/16''
      at 34 yards. The GC is extra cost but really helps
      and can be made at home cheap is you get/make
      the setup for making them.

      If you want data let me know.

      This gun will kinda replace any Rim Fire and
      also shoot to 600 yards with the right loads.

      http://palmettostatearmory.com/sava...ign=Daily+Deals+Email&utm_content=12:00+Email

      We have tested seven of them with 22'' barrels.
       
    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      I missed participating in this thread from another GT sub forum:

      https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/shtf-gun-9mm-carbine-vs-223-rifle.1662992/

      However, I'd like to take this discussion away from SHTF and TEOTWAWKI and WROL scenarios for a bit and talk about the day-to-day pros and cons of 9mm semiauto PCCs only. Someone else can explain/defend .45 carbines or lever guns.

      Facts not seriously in dispute about 9mm PCCs:

      Pound for pound 9mm and 5.56 rounds with mags are functionally of equivalent weight, but the 9mm mags consume less space.
      Round for round 5.56 is much more powerful and far ranging than any 9mm.
      The 9mm will produce less muzzle flash and sonic report than 5.56 at the same barrel lengths.
      The PCC will be easier to suppress. A PCC like the CX4 has no gas system to contend with.
      Though some may claim it possible due to wringing max velocity out of the fired round, a 9mm PCC cannot be counted upon to defeat soft body armor.
      * * * *

      Okay then. I have a PCC I like very much, a 9mm Beretta CX4 that is the companion piece for a couple of PX4 and M92 pistols I have.

      Some may call it a range toy, others a weak overpackaging of a pistol round. However, for a long gun, it gets the most trigger time of any of the ones I own. Here's how I view my own PCC:

      1. I can fire the PCC any day I want. I can use it at all area indoor pistol lanes. My gun club has an outdoor pistol range that is completely gravel covered, so it's open in all weather. Many ranges here will close for heavy snow, rain, or the resultant quagmire.

      2. It's way cheaper to feed. Factory ammo is generally cheaper than 5.56, but 9mm reloading is way cheaper and simpler if casting your own lead.

      3. No tinkertoy temptation. The parts, especially the massive blowback operated bolt, are robust. There isn't much point to replacing anything.

      4. It's useful for self-defense in the vast majority of circumstances. I live in a moderately sized urban area of around 200k souls. In the two plus decades I have put in here, I cannot recall one instance of local criminal activity involving the use of even commercial grade soft body armor, to say nothing of anything more exotic. The North Hollywood bank robbery down in California was spectacular, but it was also a unicorn.

      5. With practice any 9mm CX4 will easily and repeatedly hit a chest sized gong at 200mm using nothing optical greater than a 4MOA red dot and some judicious holdover.

      So, is it a replacement for a true rifle? Nah. Is it a very viable trunk gun or indoor oriented SD long arm? I think so, especially as it shares mags with my EDC.

      I bought my CX4 on a lark. I too initially thought of it as a fun range toy. It has eventually become my favorite "rifle."
      One day I will get a H Point 9mm rifle for plinking and some hunting,
      I kinda look at it like a 10/22 to the max, would even take it deer hunting,
      close range only. I believe it will be a great cast boolit gun.

      Now about the AR15 and cast boolits, many don't know it can be done.
      The 223 bolt guns are easy and cheaper to shoot than a 9mm, even
      with cast. I have some loads with only two grains of powder and a 54
      grain cast boolit, replaces those eight cent 22lr bullets, also have some
      very good loads with cast with 58gr boolits going 2000 fps, with seven
      grains of powder.

      I have not shot cast in my ARs yet, but I will, hear is some data for it,

      http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156326-AR-15-500-Round-Cast-Bullet-Test

      For you that want to shoot cast in the 223, here is some molds,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690459/point225-diameter-6-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf
       
    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      Also keep in mind that this happened and there wasn't a disaster or crisis that caused it and the factories that make 9mm ammo not only didn't shut down but increased production.

      In a real crisis the ammo is off the shelves on day two and there is no more being made. All ammo goes under immediate lock down or is distributed to friends or family. Scavenging at best will mean giving up something of value to get ammo, at worst it could result with you getting killed and or robbed.
      ''Also keep in mind that this happened and there wasn't a disaster or crisis''

      I did state there was NOT A SHTF,

      ''In the early 90s primers, powder, magazines
      and many other things were a problem and
      there was not a real SHTF.''
      =============================
      People that don't prep are going to suffer
      the most.

      I am old and fat but, I am a boy scout,
      be prepared.
      =============================

      With these five molds you can keep
      most common calibers shooting,
      they only cost 18.94 each, there are
      many others that will work too.

      Rifles in 22 and 30 cal, even in a
      AR15 and a M1 Garand,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      This was made for the SKS/AK47, but works
      good in most 30 cal guns, if used in tube fed
      guns like a 30-30, only have one round in the
      magazine tube or you can file a flat on the
      pointed nose and make it safe to load it full.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690385/double-cavity-mold-c312-155-2r

      For handguns,

      This one is made for the 38/357 mag but
      it works great in the 9mm, 357 sig, will
      work good in the 38 super too.

      It is my go to boolit in the 9mm, even to
      1350 fps, it is a good killer at speed.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

      This one is super in the 40 and 10mm,
      would use it for deer hunting.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690256/double-cavity-mold-401-175-tc

      This one works great in the 45 acp, good in
      the 45 Colt, I use it in the 454 Casull too, it is
      easy to hit the 200 yards rams in the 20''
      454 lever gun.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690234/double-cavity-mold-452-200-rf

      All of these molds can produce subsonic
      loads that are accurate and cheaper to shoot
      than 22lr, they can also do the higher velocity
      loads for hunting.
       
    2. · Registered
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      9,525 Posts
      ''Also keep in mind that this happened and there wasn't a disaster or crisis''

      I did state there was NOT A SHTF,

      ''In the early 90s primers, powder, magazines
      and many other things were a problem and
      there was not a real SHTF.''
      =============================
      People that don't prep are going to suffer
      the most.

      I am old and fat but, I am a boy scout,
      be prepared.
      =============================

      With these five molds you can keep
      most common calibers shooting,
      they only cost 18.94 each, there are
      many others that will work too.

      Rifles in 22 and 30 cal, even in a
      AR15 and a M1 Garand,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      This was made for the SKS/AK47, but works
      good in most 30 cal guns, if used in tube fed
      guns like a 30-30, only have one round in the
      magazine tube or you can file a flat on the
      pointed nose and make it safe to load it full.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690385/double-cavity-mold-c312-155-2r

      For handguns,

      This one is made for the 38/357 mag but
      it works great in the 9mm, 357 sig, will
      work good in the 38 super too.

      It is my go to boolit in the 9mm, even to
      1350 fps, it is a good killer at speed.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

      This one is super in the 40 and 10mm,
      would use it for deer hunting.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690256/double-cavity-mold-401-175-tc

      This one works great in the 45 acp, good in
      the 45 Colt, I use it in the 454 Casull too, it is
      easy to hit the 200 yards rams in the 20''
      454 lever gun.
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690234/double-cavity-mold-452-200-rf

      All of these molds can produce subsonic
      loads that are accurate and cheaper to shoot
      than 22lr, they can also do the higher velocity
      loads for hunting.
      I am not really sold on the ideal that reloading will be the way to go at disaster time. I think that mobility will be very important as environments, threats and opportunities change. I think it would be much easier to manage a few thousand rounds of ammo on the move than all the parts, pieces and equipment associated with reloading. I also think that much of the ammo needed for survival will be the .22LR which of course can't be easily reloaded but can be moved in relatively large quantities.

      Bottom line in a challenging situation there will be a lot of different needs and demands on time and energy and I am not sure reloading fits into that picture.
       
    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      This is not so much hording, more like
      being a good Boy Scout, the old kind,
      not the new PC kind.

      Some things every serious shooter should have.

      At least one mold that works good for every gun you own, many of these molds work in many guns, most come in a two or six cavity.

      This mold will work good in almost all 22 center fire guns, from the 223 to the 220 swift, even an AR15.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      This is the six cavity version, I have both and now that they are proven will get an extra.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690459/point225-diameter-6-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      For most .30 cal guns, from the 30-30 to the magnums.

      This one will let your big game rifle shoot cheaper than a 22lr but have more power, from subsonic to over 2000 fps.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690362/double-cavity-mold-c309-113-f

      For the 7.62x39 but it will work great in most .30 guns like a 308, 30-06 and up to the magnums.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690385/double-cavity-mold-c312-155-2r

      For the 12 ga,
      with this slug mold you can get the cheap 100
      round
      cases of shot loads for 22 dollars and melt the shot down
      and cast it into slugs, put the slug into the shell and have a deer slug load.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690281/single-cavity-shotgun-slug-mold-12-gauge-1-oz

      More shotgun molds for slugs and buckshot,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/reloading/lead-bullet-casting/lee-moulds/12-ga

      For the 38/357 mag but I have used them in the 9mm and 357 sig too.

      For the 9mm, 38 super, 357sig, 38 sp and 357 mag, it
      was made for the 38/357 but it is my go to boolit for
      the 9mm. It is great for small game and would be an
      OK DF load too, will penetrate much more than normal
      DF loads.

      It is a must have because it works so good in
      so many different cases,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

      This is one of my go to 38/357 boolits, it's easy to use and shoots great, when loaded full it would shoot through a 500 lb elk.
      My most shot load is with five grains of 700x for around 1025 fps in a six inch barrel. It is a TL design.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690321/double-cavity-mold-tl358-158-swc

      This is a standard lube design and works great too,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690303/double-cavity-mold-358-158-rf

      For the 40 and 10mm, I would use it for deer hunting and DF if it is all I had, it will penetrate much more than most DF bullets.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690256/double-cavity-mold-401-175-tc

      For the 44 mag, it's best for hunting big game,
      if fit to a good revolver, it should shoot under four inches at 100 yards, have done under two inches at 100 yards, can be used at 1000 fps
      for close shooting.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690858/double-cavity-mold-c430-310-rf

      For most things 45, from the 45 acp to the 454 Casull, have shot all of them to two hundreds
      yards with good results.

      This one is a must have,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690234/double-cavity-mold-452-200-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690358/double-cavity-mold-452-255-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690359/double-cavity-mold-c452-300-rf

      You can't hardly have too many small rifle primers, they can be used
      in most handgun if you know what you are doing, even 10mm and 44 mag. You still should have a lot of large pistol and large rifle.

      With a few eight lb kegs of powder like Bullseye,
      you will be shooting a long time if you have enough primers.

      With some of my 223 loads I get 3500 shots
      pr one pound of powder, that's why you need
      a lot of primers, that load is a 55gr cast boolit
      around 900 fps, kinda like a 22lr pistol, but
      cheaper. With seven grains of BE you will get
      1900 fps, kinda like a 22 magnum but cheaper
      and more powerful.

      This will work for most rifles and handguns.

      IMHO, you should learn how to and what loads
      now while things are still available.
       
    1. · Registered
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      Start buying up reloading equipment....
      Amen, and not just reloading equipment,
      molds too.

      I have posted this before but I don't think
      many pay it much attention.

      With these five molds you can keep many
      guns in projectiles, they are only around
      20 dollars each. Most of these also come
      in a six cavity also.

      Most 22 cal center fire guns, including the
      AR15 to a 220 Swift,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      Most .30 cal rifles, from an SKS, AK47 to a
      308, 30-06 and the magnums,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690385/double-cavity-mold-c312-155-2r

      Most .355'' to 359'', 9mm, 357sig, 38sp,
      357 mag and the 38 super,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

      40 and 10mm,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690256/double-cavity-mold-401-175-tc

      45 ACP, 45 Colt and 454 Casull,
      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690234/double-cavity-mold-452-200-rf

      There are many other molds but these have
      worked good for many people, I have good
      loads for most that was listed.

      Many of the loads only cost around four to
      seven cents a shot and some are good for
      deer hunting.
       
    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      When America entered the dark ages we had,
      MORE THAN, we still have many 22lrs but don't
      shoot them much.

      If you really want to be prepared, start reloading
      and casting, you can duplicate many rimfire loads
      with your centerfire guns, even calibers like 30-06.

      With many loads you will shoot cheaper than
      premium 22lr and can tailor to the purpose,
      the most costly part is the primer for many
      loads.

      A good small game load for the 223 is a 55gr
      cast boolit and 2gr of powder, around 1000
      fps and quiet in the long barrels.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      With seven grains of powder you will get
      around 1900fps, better than a 22 magnum,
      ten grains and you are around 2350fps, that
      is close to a 22 hornet.

      We use any small pistol or small rifle primer
      for these loads, use the cheapest one.

      Note the data on this page, from 2 grains
      to 11 grains, also note the fifty and 100
      yard groups,

      http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/223cast3.htm

      For those that are interested, here is some more
      links with data up to cast in an AR15,

      http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast in the .223.pdf

      http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast in the .223, Part II.pdf

      http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156326-AR-15-500-Round-Cast-Bullet-Test

      http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?334327-223-and-Lee-boolits

      This can be done in most calibers in rifle and handguns.
       
    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      OP, something to think about, yes we all should have
      some guns for different reasons but things have been
      different since the early 90s.

      When I started shooting, early 60s, and started reloading,
      66, was ten years old, we never worried about not finding
      ammo or reloading components, things are different now.

      I believe we all should not only have guns but should be
      able to cast and reload, you will save in the long run and
      will probably not run out of ammo. If you stock up.

      Many rounds can be made for four to six cents a shot and
      you can tailor loads to different applications, like in a 223
      rifle.

      Some of my 223 loads are a cast boolit at 900 fps and are
      very quiet and cheaper than most 22lr ammo, some are
      around 2000 fps and replace the 22 win mag, and some
      can be made much faster and will function in an AR15.

      This design boolit can be used in many 22 CF cartridges and
      at different velocities,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690459/point225-diameter-6-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      This is not unique to a 22 center fire, all calibers can do it.

      Maybe spending money on reloading and casting would
      be a good idea and kind of an insurance policy, be a boy
      scout, be prepared.
       
    2. · Registered
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      12,896 Posts
      Discussion Starter · #53 ·
      OP, something to think about, yes we all should have
      some guns for different reasons but things have been
      different since the early 90s.

      When I started shooting, early 60s, and started reloading,
      66, was ten years old, we never worried about not finding
      ammo or reloading components, things are different now.

      I believe we all should not only have guns but should be
      able to cast and reload, you will save in the long run and
      will probably not run out of ammo. If you stock up.

      Many rounds can be made for four to six cents a shot and
      you can tailor loads to different applications, like in a 223
      rifle.

      Some of my 223 loads are a cast boolit at 900 fps and are
      very quiet and cheaper than most 22lr ammo, some are
      around 2000 fps and replace the 22 win mag, and some
      can be made much faster and will function in an AR15.

      This design boolit can be used in many 22 CF cartridges and
      at different velocities,

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690459/point225-diameter-6-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      This is not unique to a 22 center fire, all calibers can do it.

      Maybe spending money on reloading and casting would
      be a good idea and kind of an insurance policy, be a boy
      scout, be prepared.
      I have thought about reloading before, but there are two issues:
      1. I don't know if I have the patience and precision for it. I have seen the aftermath of double charged loads.
      2. My current work schedule is 7 days a week, with varying hours. I usually get up at 4 am, and finish around 8 or 9 pm, except Sat/Sun where I am done around 3 or 4 pm. I am able to shoot twice a month for about an hour - not due to money, but time. Time in between appointments is filled with short naps, paperwork, program design, and scheduling.

      Reloading is something I'll consider when I retire.
       
    1. · Registered
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      8,142 Posts
      This was my initial thinking when I started to get the itch. I thought "Why buy another caliber when I have a 17 HMR, plenty of .22 lr's and .223's"? But when you look for something with some more oomph than a 22 lr in a revolver/pistol and carbine, the .22 WMR won out. Overall weight of the ammo is also a consideration if I decide to put this in a bug out bag.
      There are very few BO scenarios when I would want a RF
      over a CF, I know that is not the normal thinking here but
      a CF is far more versatile.

      A long term BO, the RF is even more limiting, especially if
      you find others ammo stash, you can use the pulled down
      components for other calibers.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690451/point225-diameter-2-cavity-mold-c225-55-rf

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690232/lee-classic-loader-223-remington

      Look at this data, note the loads at the bottom of the page,
      two grs of powder, same power as a 22lr pistol, but quieter,

      http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/223cast3.htm

      Some of the loads beat the bigger RFs but are around
      six to ten cents a shot, much better for larger animals.

      You can do this with almost all CF cartridges, even the
      308 or 30-06, all can be down loaded very cheap and
      made subsonic, very quiet.

      This link has many other calibers with data, a boolit
      mold and a Lee Loader will get you started, around
      fifty dollars for a life time of good shooting.

      http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

      For most .30 calibers, this will work, also much
      better for deer in a survival situation, there are
      many other molds that will work.

      https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690362/double-cavity-mold-c309-113-f

      For the record, I have fired one 223 case seventy
      five times and one 30-06 case thirty five times,
      they were both still good for more reloads.

      Please forgive for the thread drift.
       
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