This came up in another section, but I figured I'd start a thread here.
There is still talk about the inferiority of MIM parts. Granted, when they were first introduced there were legitimate issues with some manufacturers. But when was the last time you read about MIM failures from a major manufacturer?
I don't remember any recent mass failures from Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Ruger, etc.
Is anyone aware of something I'm missing?
This came up in another section, but I figured I'd start a thread here.
There is still talk about the inferiority of MIM parts. Granted, when they were first introduced there were legitimate issues with some manufacturers. But when was the last time you read about MIM failures from a major manufacturer?
I don't remember any recent mass failures from Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Ruger, etc.
Is anyone aware of something I'm missing?
MIM parts break, cast parts break, forged parts break. The mold and the mixture are the key.
If manufacturers get that right, which their quite good at these days, then it's all good.
As 'bac' stated, MIM parts are much better. In fact considerably better than years past.
That being said, I personally, wouldn't accept MIM or cast parts, in a high end gun. In lower end and up, sure.
Having been involved as an armorer with some commonly used guns that use forged, cast and MIM parts since the later 90's, I've come across more defective or broken forged parts, followed by cast parts, then MIM parts.
MIM has had massive improvement in just the last five years. As soon as all the defective MIM parts from earlier years finish breaking and being replaced, the problem will become a thing of the past. Just like other types of early defects that were corrected. Everyone loves their ARs now, and a lot of people weren't even alive when their faults were killing Marines.
MIM in a Glock, meh, sure. Striker is kinda wonky in MIM but it works.
MIM in Rolls Royce Trent 1000, nervous meh, no big deal.
MIM in a 1911? No. Wtfbbq! A 1911 is no place to cut corners. I won't carry or compete with a 1911 that isn't completely billet. It took a while to figure out what works. But 1911's have enough issues without compounding it, with cast or MIM parts.
This came up in another section, but I figured I'd start a thread here.
There is still talk about the inferiority of MIM parts. Granted, when they were first introduced there were legitimate issues with some manufacturers. But when was the last time you read about MIM failures from a major manufacturer?
I don't remember any recent mass failures from Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Ruger, etc.
Is anyone aware of something I'm missing?
I had an MIM Kimber ejector shear the rear pin last summer. This was a 2011 made gun. I fitted an Ed Brown machined steel one in it's place with a full length solid cross pin. I have Springers and Kimbers with MIM parts and that is the only failure I've had so far.
I remember years ago how we scoffed at Ruger's investment cast parts, like we do (did) with MIM. Now casting is well established.
I had a couple breakages back around 2000 with some S&W MIM sears in a PC 952.
I'm sure my Kimber 9mm Target II is full of it.
But like Bac said, it's gotten better, so I'm not loosing sleep.
I was going to mention this but you beat me to it. I think that always happens with new tech. While bugs are ironed out, it gets a bad rap when it just needs to come into its own and be refined. It doesn't help that like all new tech, the manufacturers tend to overreach while applying it, using it beyond its capabilities. Then throw in people that believe all old ways are always best and can never be improved or replaced for good measure and you have what you have now with MIM.
I have read things beyond firearms that agrees with this.
Not to mention an uncle whose life work consisted of QA/QC in cars, pumps, jet engines, and whatever anyone would pay him to trouble shoot agreed with this.
Someone could make a 1911 extractor with dog turds. It might take some time and there might be some more cost effective methods but it could be done. Its all about how you do it and making sure you are doing it right.
The last MIM that I've experienced breaking, is the striker on my S&W SD40VE. It broke by just dry firing it. I wouldn't want any MIM on any critical part of my guns, if I can help it.
If you paid less than $1500 for your 1911, chances are there are some MIM parts in there somewhere. If you carry any of the popular polymer framed handguns, there are MIM parts in there.
no doubt, without MIM there probably would be no “reasonably” priced or budget firearms like the market is full of nowadays.
Instead of owning a dozen pistols then I might only own one or two higher dollar ones. Would that be all bad? Probably not, depends on your outlook.
But for the many Americans who can’t afford guns starting at $1000 and going sharply upward, budget type defense guns like the S&W shield or Ruger LCP are very important to have available.
I'd hate to do a trigger job on a 1911 with parts made from dog ****. All that assembling, disassembling, filing, fitting, dog **** all over my tools, the bench, dog **** dust in the air, dog **** on my hands, in my hair...
In 1949 a couple of guys made a 22LR pistol out of OMG stamped sheet metal OMG
The Ruger Mk1 pistol was scorned (born)
Just how much would you pay for an all machined parts firearm? Before CNC came to the shop floors? The internet has some fascinating photos of machine shops from the 1920/30s. Also notice all the machinists wore suits and ties to work.
Long history of forged parts failing in guns; crappy, steel, bad or no heat treatment, design etc.
Same with MIM. Nothing new here under the sun....the differences between the two today are more romantic than functional.
It's a lot easier to improve the trigger on a S&W revolver with MIM parts. My guess is they are able to be held to closer tolerances and are more repeatable. Other than springs and sights I can't think of any parts I've broken.
I am pretty sure forged is where someone like a blacksmith (or more modern, a machine) puts metal in a furnace and heats it till it is red hot and the blacksmith hammers it into the shape they want.
Cast I believe is where a mold is created into the shape of the part and molten steel is poured in.
You are right. I will add that forging changes the alignment of the cellular structure or grain of the steel. Casting can have micro voids within the steels structure or porosity where forging hammers and closes up the porous cellular structure. Some casting processes use different (harder) steel alloys to get similar strength of forged steel sometimes at the expense of brittleness.
I have mentioned before - in 2018 I sent one of my Springfield Ranger Officers off to a respected bullseye gunsmith for slide to frame and barrel to slide fitting and an action job. I asked him if it would be better to send it to him with an EGW ignition kit, so I'd get the action job on better quality parts. He said to send the Springfield parts, because the stuff about MIM parts was BS and he guaranteed the action job on the original MIM parts.
I am pretty sure forged is where someone like a blacksmith (or more modern, a machine) puts metal in a furnace and heats it till it is red hot and the blacksmith hammers it into the shape they want.
Cast I believe is where a mold is created into the shape of the part and molten steel is poured in.
The initial forged piece is a very rough shape. That works fine for horseshoes, but for a firearm or other machinery, some intricate machining is required. Casting gets you closer to the finished product in one step, but will still require some machining. The key differences between the finished parts may be entirely insignificant to the end user.
I am pretty sure forged is where someone like a blacksmith (or more modern, a machine) puts metal in a furnace and heats it till it is red hot and the blacksmith hammers it into the shape they want.
Cast I believe is where a mold is created into the shape of the part and molten steel is poured in.
Forged parts are more ductile also. They can be easily welded on and re heat treated. Cast parts can be hardened deeper generally in the casting process as they cool. Forged parts have surface hardening with a softer core usually.
I am not sure of the source of Sig's MIM parts now, but up until I got scr*wed buying a then new P-938 that kept breaking MIM extractors, Sig was buying their parts from a company called "Indo-MIM" (or something close).
Funny (to my mind) story.
The reports years ago was that the President of Indo-MIM was attending a trade show where he was getting FLAK over their poor quality of parts in SIG pistols.
The reports at the time stated, that he reported that Indo-MIM could make parts in any quality the purchaser required, however SIG spec'ed, low quality parts, and that's what they delivered..... It is not their fault that Sig did not understand that quality comes at a cost.
It's all about application. Forged, cast, billet, stamped, MIM, etc. All have pros and cons and are suitable for different applications that have different needs, i.e. stresses. Use the wrong type for the wrong application and it will fail sooner than one made with a preferred method. Using the proper metals and alloys and proper heat treatment is as important as anything.
Just like there's pros and cons to hammer forged, button and cut rifling. It's all about application, expectations and economies.
Small internal low stress but high wear parts are perfect for MIM because they can be made with high precision resulting in better consistency and less hand fitting. Doesn't mean forged or barstock wouldn't technically be better for a sear for example but you wouldn't really gain anything but cost. Using MIM for an extractor that flexes frequently is not the best application for 1911 internal styles although it's done frequently with plenty of success for pivot style extractors.
Forged was always considered the best and only choice for shear toughness and strength but Ruger changed that perception and reality by casting their revolvers and bolt actions. BFR and Freedom Arms uses cast frames and plenty of large caliber hand cannons are custom made on Blackhawk and Redhawk frames with zero issues. Ruger's bolts and No 1 actions chamber extremely high pressure calibers with no issues as well.
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