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Florida Highway Patrol is dropping the 45 Gap.

10K views 22 replies 14 participants last post by  NewBest45 
#1 ·
The Florida Highway Patrol is in the process of going to a 9mm duty weapon, replacing the Glock mod 37. A big step backwards in my opinion. They are testing Glocks 17 and 21, Smith & Wesson m&p, Sig 9mm and a FN. I asked a Captain today why, and he said because ammo for the Gap is hard to obtain. It will be awhile before the change takes place, but if I hear what they are going to do with the mod 37's I will let yawl know. An old retired Trooper.
 
#2 ·
Gov rarely has the correct priorities. First and foremost they make decisions that are politically expedient. "Will I lose my job by this decision" is usually the driving factor. in this case they justify the decision based on the recent popularity of 9mm (which I dont argue is an effective round). But I have always felt a more penetrating round such as 357sig or 10mm makes more sense for the Highway Patrol.
 
#3 ·
I agree, a huge mistake.
I can see a 357 Sig, or 40 S&W making the grade, but not a 9mm. A 9mm is a big step backwards in knock down power from a 45GAP.
My understanding from talking with Bill (Fla Trooper 265) is that the Florida Highway Patrol has been happy with the performance of the 45GAP. It has a good track record when used.

The 45GAP is not that hard to shoot well with 185 and 200 grain loads. My guess why the change would be being trendy following the FBI's lead to a cheaper round that is easier to train Ladies, and non-shooters to shoot well enough to qualify. It would have very little to do with which round works better in the hands of the Troopers to defend their-selves and others.

Bob R
 
#6 ·
Can you explain further?

I’m not a mathematician by means, but I’ve read articles discussing stopping power where the writers had formulas with bullet weight, and velocity equaled x amount of foot pounds of impact force when it struck the target. There were distinct differences between the 9 & 45.

I understand that bullet placement is key to stopping the threat no matter what caliber is used, but accuracy is vital to hit what needs to be hit.
 
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#5 ·
I don’t know what they do with the brass, but if it’s allowed and you have some friends at the range, there’s an opportunity to make a few bucks to supplement the retirement.

The range at my PD has 55 gallon barrels of brass. They tell me that it’s sold for scrap and the proceeds go to the dept pistol team. I asked about buying some and was refused. Later I asked again and was directed to the Lt. of the Tac Team. Turns out he was an old friend from my Air Natl Guard days. He asked how much I wanted. I really wanted to say all, but didn’t want to be greedy. I asked for a five gallon bucket full of 45 ACP and he said come get it. I offered to make a donation to the pistol team and he told me not to worry about it.

I don’t flip brass for profits, I reload and cast bullets and use it till it wears out then start again. My club has a scrap brass barrel that they either sell it to club members or for scrap. All my scrap goes in the barrel for profits for the club.
 
#7 ·
Can you explain further?

I’m not a mathematician by means, but I’ve read articles discussing stopping power where the writers had formulas with bullet weight, and velocity equaled x amount of foot pounds of impact force when it struck the target. There were distinct differences between the 9 & 45.

I understand that bullet placement is key to stopping the threat no matter what caliber is used, but accuracy is vital to hit what needs to be hit.

Handguns are chosen because they are convenient to carry. They lack any honest definition of "knock down power".
 
#8 · (Edited)
Stopping Power would be the more correct term.
As normal Police Carry semi automatics pistols are not Hi Velocity like rifle ammunition. They primarily depend on the blood pressure going down to end the fight. The bigger the bullet hole, the faster the blood pressure goes to Zero. You also have other factors like organ damage to consider.
You also factor in barrier penetration, things that clog hollow points, etc when considering ammunition.

The 9mm round the Florida HP is considering going to has been declared by the FBI to NOW be "adequate" to get the job done with the new 9mm Wonder Bullets. Something that seems to be going over everyone's head is that same Wonder Bullet Technology is being used in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 bullets as well. Their is a difference between being Adequate and the Best Available Round for the job.

The 9mm does have a few good selling points:
Easier to get recruits to qualify with than harder recoiling rounds.
Cheaper Ammunition. Paper Pushers are all over Cheaper.
More ammunition available without a reload.

Now that the FBI has declared the 9mm Adequate to get the job done. Paper pushers are all over easier to Qualify With and Cheaper Ammunition.

I have not seen anyone declare that a 9mm has more stopping power than a 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 45GAP or 45acp.

The change from 45GAP to 9mm has a lot more to do with CHEAPER than BETTER.

Bob R
 
#14 ·
Thanks for the update.

Unsurprising, really.

While there's nothing inherently "wrong" with a good .45 caliber pistol bullet of the usual bullet weights, the dwindling interest in the .45GAP probably wasn't helping make the ammunition options exactly affordable, or as easily available as the common service calibers. Having the cartridge only being chambered by one gun maker probably wasn't the best recipe for making it a widespread favorite, either.

I know the CHP out this way is still quite pleased with their choice of .40 S&W, and they remained with that caliber when finally deciding to transition from steel to plastic duty weapons. A friend of mine who retired from the CHP some years ago, and who was also one of their weapons training officers (think firearms instructor), spent half of his career carrying both .357MAG and .38 SPL +P+ revolvers, and the other half carrying their original .40's (M4006 on-duty & a 4013 off-duty). When we were talking shop and reminiscing one day, he told me that from everything he'd heard within his agency over the years, they were more satisfied with the results when it came to their .40's (shooting 180gr JHP loads), than when they'd been carrying either .357 or .38 (and a couple of the field offices where he'd worked used to issue 125gr .357MAG, if the officers could qualify with it).

Different strokes, right?

Other agencies of comparable size, or even larger, are still quite satisfied with the 9mm, though.

The last issued weapon I carried (as a reserve, after I retired) was a .40, after I tunred in a .45, but that was because so many guys & gals were standing in line for the more popular and available .45's, while another lined was formed for the other guys & gals wanting to get the less available 9's (or soon trade in their new .45's for 9's, in some cases). I shrugged and just took one of the lonely .40's, and ran lots of rounds through it, having carried some different 9's, .40's and .45's over the "pistol years" in my regular career. It was interesting that even a significant number of our training unit, who were formerly ardent .45 shooters, were lining up for the new 9's. I just recently heard that yet another order of new M&P 9's (for more new-hires) was received, except these were the new Shield 2.0 Compact model, which, all things considered, seems like a good choice. Medium-sized gun, with a 15rd primary mag. A friend of mine who just got one said his came with 2 15rd mags and a 17rd mag, and the 17rd came from the factory with a grip adapter sleeve.

Oh well, times change.

Retirement's great, though, isn't it? ;)
 
#15 ·
Humm? It seems many felons are taken out by police using their handguns. I expect more police would be lost if they had to rely on a long gun. Quoting figures based on black board speculation proves nothing.
Police in order to protect American society shoot on the average 1,000 criminals each year. Yes most with handguns.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
There's a few different mathematical methods people have created over the years that imbues some number scale rating of "knock-down power" or power factors to handgun cartridges. Looks nice on paper, and the math makes it seem sensible. It's just where the rubber meets the road in the real world where nifty knock-down and power factor calculations can start to fall short of expectations in making people stop in their actions. ;)

People have also done calculations about the amount of "energy" capable of being delivered by trained boxers and karate practitioners, too, using fists and feet. A lot more "energy" can be delivered on-target by a skilled person punching or kicking than can be delivered by a bullet, but it's noticeably hard to knock someone off their feet unless they're either off-balance at the right moment, or something that holds them upright or helps them keep their balance is at least temporarily injured (skeletal/muscular or CNS/balance). Not the "sheer foot/pounds" of "knock-down power". It what that "power" may do, and does do, and where it does it (anatomically) that really matters when moments are ticking by.

Look at it this way, you can often knock a bowling pin off a table faster, further and with more "authority" by lobbing a softball at it, than hitting it with pistol bullet.

Of course, even 5.56 rounds barely knock over bowling pins at 50yds (we use that for informal and fun beat-the-clock/team competitions in some classes) ... but the rifle bullets can use their significantly greater velocity and bullet construction to usually cause significantly more wounding effect in soft mediums (and bony structures) than a low velocity pistol bullet.

Even the term "stopping power" is a bit disingenuous, or at least not consistently helpful, in choosing handgun calibers. The term "stopping power" is really more suited to being used when discussing brakes and motor vehicles.

Bullet design and construction (meaning good JHP design over ball/FMJ) and shooter controlled accurate shot placement are what really seem to count when all is said and done.

The nature of the wounding caused among critical tissues, organs and anatomical structures is going to play a critical role in how quickly some attacker may be "stopped", physiologically, from having the ability to continue making further volitional actions after being hit. Back in the earlier days of what became the modern study of wound ballistics and duty ammunition studies (late 80's), the FBI opined that an attacker falling down was "good". Not being "knocked down", but falling down.

Yeah, there's always the proponents of "hydro-static shock" (or otherwise described one way or another), too. That's another ball of wax, though.

All the different variations-on-a-theme contained within the wide spectrum of light/fast v. slow/heavy handgun calibers try to approach the "problem" (stopping attackers from doing bad things) from their own various directions, and sometimes they start to overlap one another in one way or another.



Perhaps not totally correct. I've listened to another instructor working with the FBI (in a training capacity, and a very good friend of mine of some years) who has explained to me at great length that the experienced agents working as instructors, and a good number of experienced agents carrying the guns in the field (or, "doing the heavy lifting"), are firmly behind the switch to 9mm.

When you're talking about an agency that arms close to 10,000 people, though, you're going to hear all kinds of opinions from one day to the next. It's the reasoning and context behind the various opinions that makes it possible to occasionally start separating the wheat from the chaff, though.
Hey I admit there is personal bias here re: the 9mm. I’ve tried to like it but when I compare it to the .40, .45 and .357 Magnum, it always comes up short. I’m not sure about all the mathematics but it doesn’t hit with the same authority as the aforementioned rounds unless you use +p or +p+ ammo and in Hogan’s Alley type drills, I’ve not been impressed with the +P 135 grain personal defense ammo’s barrier performance. Finally, if, God forbid I have exhausted all possibilities and must use a handgun to stop the threat, I am probably not going to have the luxury of perfect shot placement so I want the most powerful round I can practically carry and be effective with. In other words, I want to have a pistol with an above average capacity that makes relatively big holes. I was an early adopter of the .40 Smith and Wesson with a 1993, Gen. 2 Glock 22 and I’ve stayed with it ever since. When the .40 first came out, the accuracy was less than ideal and we were still figuring out how to make the casing and chambers. Now they are accurate and safe to shoot. To me it’s a very fun round for knocking down steel plates. I like it so well, I just bought an HK P30S in .40. It works for me and that’s what counts just as the 9mm may work for you and that what counts too. And you know, if a given agency adopts a given caliber, we should not blindly follow. We should find out what works for us.
 
#22 ·
Hey I admit there is personal bias here re: the 9mm. I’ve tried to like it but when I compare it to the .40, .45 and .357 Magnum, it always comes up short. ...
There's really nothing "wrong" with the .40, service-wise, aside from the difficulty some average users/owners may experience with the slightly snappier recoil impulse. The major gun makers have worked hard over the last 28 years to create pistols that are more tolerant of the increased recoil forces (particularly slide velocity), and the JHP ammunition has kept pace, too. It's a decent service caliber. I own 5 pistols chambered in it, myself, and carried some issued pistols chambered in it, as well.

I'm also an owner and user of the venerable .45ACP (9 pistols) and .357MAG revolvers (5 left, I think?), although I don't often carry the .357MAG round as much as I did as a younger cop.

The more rounds I've put downrange in training/drills and overall practice over the years I've served as an instructor, and the more cops I've spoken and listened to who have been involved in shootings, and shooting incidents I've reviewed, the less I've been as engrossed about "caliber" as I was when I was younger.

I've reached the point where if someone can pick up any particular major service/defensive caliber and do well with it, the more I'm only concerned about their ability to run it fast, controllably and accurately, and in increasingly demanding conditions. Ditto for my own needs nowadays as a retiree.

If you're completely satisfied with the .40, then there's certainly nothing inherently wrong with that. ;) It's all about what you can do with it when things get fast, fuzzy and difficult, after all.
 
#23 ·
The GAP was dead on arrival. Hydrostatic Shock and Knockdown Power do not exist in pistol calibers.
The 9mm has won the caliber war.
Accept the future .


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Sadly, too many people have been taught that their pistol is not effective and the need to empty the gun until the threat is not a threat, this results in a hail of gunfire for better or for worse. Rage takes over as the situation is judged by preconceived notions instead of what is really happening, the 20rnds fired at an unarmed man that is in the news right now, is one example of continuing to fire. I advocate police departments issue 33rnd mags to their officers if they teach them that their firearm is not effective to give the officer a chance against multiple bad guys.
 
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