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Caliber thoughts

12K views 319 replies 53 participants last post by  clarkz71 
#1 ·
So reading here for the last month in general
.380 why bother with the sub compact 9’s available
9mm potentially not a gun for a man, better than it was but not enough...get SW 40.
Can’t do that most hate it too snappy...might as well go 45
45 is good but if your gonna go 45 might as well go 10.
Can’t do 10 too powerful for some.
Guess it’s back to .380
No shortage of opinions here
 
#3 ·
In any caliber war thread, I notice the naysayers never take up the offer to go stand downrange while the lesser calibers are being fired.
 
#4 ·
I don't worry about what other's opinions are about what calibers to carry. My decision on the calibers I shoot was based on which ones I enjoyed shooting, felt comfortable with, and was accurate with. I don't need to shoot a caliber that I don't enjoy or I am not accurate with because of popular opinion. My feeling is I shoot what I like and I like what I shoot.
 
#5 ·
As was already stated, the gun you have with you is better than the one you left at home because it was;
Too big
Too cumbersome
Too hard to conceal, that day
Pants were too tight
Too whatever
I have a couple .45s, a G20SF 10mm, and multiple 9mms, but the weapon that I have on me 24/7 in my M&P Bodyguard .380. It is the only handgun that I can conceal carry at work and nobody knows. Also, it is the easiest handgun to conceal while working out in just a t-shirt and pair of shorts. If YOU like it and it feels good, CARRY it, don't worry about what everyone else is saying or doing.
 
#7 ·
I might also add that I go to the range every week to two weeks and shoot the weapons that I carry the most. My .380 and one of my nines. If you're going to carry it, make sure you can shoot it. On days when I am limited on time, I may only shoot a few mags, but I try to shoot at least once every couple of weeks. Also, make sure you practice magazine changes, just in case. My .380 only carries 6+1, so if I need it, I may need to do a magazine change. It needs to be a habit, not something I need to think about.
 
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#10 ·
Just about every ballistic and associated weapon-size characteristic points to 357SIG as providing very significant advantages over all common auto-pistol contenders except...sometimes...10mm.

It's unfortunate that it arrived on-scene four years after 40SW. If it had been the first new cartridge that adapted a 10mm casing to a 9mm-sized handgun, 40SW would be a footnote. There would be no discussion about returning to 9x19mm, nor any motivation for service use of 45ACP.
 
#11 ·
So reading here for the last month in general
.380 why bother with the sub compact 9’s available
9mm potentially not a gun for a man, better than it was but not enough...get SW 40.
Can’t do that most hate it too snappy...might as well go 45
45 is good but if your gonna go 45 might as well go 10.
Can’t do 10 too powerful for some.
Guess it’s back to .380
No shortage of opinions here
I think the only thing that I can say is I totally disagree with everything you posted, except the last two lines.

The next to last line I can't disagree with as it is a personal choice.

The last statement is just a universal truth that applies to all humanity. :)
 
#17 ·
I don't care what others decide to carry. I won't put their choice down or call them pansies or guys with tiny dicks trying to compensate. Anything is always better than nothing.
 
#20 ·
I used to work at a place that sold (among other things) web filtering software. Beware the IT savvy boss.
COntext is everything.
What was the context again? Well, why didn't you say so: I will provide.
The Grand Inquisitor said:
Would you prefer 9mm over .380?
Minervadoe said:
I'll carry the largest caliber that I can conceal and still shoot well.
The Grand Inquisitor said:
So, if you were wearing a speedo and could only conceal a .380 or a derringer in .45 ACP, which would you choose?
Minervadoe said:
I'd probably take the .380. I've shot a derringer firing hot .45 ACP and the whole two barrels with different point of aim thing, when coupled with the fact that it beat up my hands and wrists means I would not practice enough with it to reach the level of proficiency that I prefer.
The Grand Inquisitor said:
What about 9mm vs .380?
Minervadoe said:
Here is an excellent article where different calibers are fired into ballistic gel. You can see that .380 does well and most rounds meet a commonly agreed upon effective penetration depth of twelve inches. But, I'd prefer 9mm.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
The Grand Inquisitor said:
Minervadoe said:
I have a S&W Shield 9mm and a Glock 26 both of which conceal very well. I can shoot both pistols very accurately and very quickly. And, the 9mm rounds can be a little heavier and they penetrate a little deeper than .380.
The Grand Inquisitor said:
How about .40 S&W vs 9mm?
Minervadoe said:
.40 S&W is a great round. I have a conversion barrel for my Glock 29SF (which I sort of need a jacket or a vest to conceal). But, I'd probably just carry with its standard 10mm barrel because .... nuclear.
The Grand Inquisitor said:
How about .45ACP vs .40S&W?
Minervadoe said:
Both are very powerful. Check the charts. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ Rent a gun. See which you shoot the best. I love my Glock 30SF, but like my Glock 29SF, I can't conceal it under a t-shirt. It prints.
 
#19 ·
My caliber thoughts, AKA annoying cliche things that get posted a lot:

1. "Handguns suck at stopping people" (generalization) or some version of it is parroted because its what they read.

If a person was shot from the side, as shooting a broadside deer, one bullet could perforate both lungs, the person (like a deer) would have up to ten seconds of voluntary action remaining; that doesn't correlate with suck, because a .243 from a rifle would allow the same amount of time on a double lung hit.

People attacking someone would typically be shot facing forward, one bullet might get one lung but not both, time remaining for voluntary action has now increased; doesn't mean the bullet sucked, person still has one functional lung.

2. "Doctors can't tell a difference between handgun wounds" (broad generalization)
There are two possibilities:
(A) There are photos of damage from different handgun rounds indicating the caliber and bullet used, for example subjects A, B, C shot with 9mm/40/45 HST, subjects D, E, F shot with 9mm/40/45 Gold Dot, and G, H, I were Golden Saber in 9mm/40/45 and a team of medical professionals can't discern any wound difference, how about you? Pics available for layperson review.
(B) There are not comparison pics, rather this cliche is based on anecdotal observations of doctors more focused on saving a patients life than differentiating between the damage done by different bullets.

I assume it to be the 2nd of the two possibilities, as I've never seen the pics I described in possibility option A.

3. "KE doesn't matter at handgun velocity" (another broad generalization)
Very likely that differences in caliber and bullet type aside, most people shot by police and civilians alike are with handgun bullets generating less than 400# KE including 9mm, 40, 45 and it is possible that less than 400# KE doesn't result in obvious or meaningful temporary cavity effect. However, applying this to all handgun calibers is an incorrect generalization.

Less commonly used carry calibers capable of generating 500+# KE are 357 Sig and 10mm.
What if the pistol bullet produced over 500# KE?
Some 357 Sig and 10mm loads are visibly more destructive of gel than 9/40/45.
But, temporary cavity effect in gel is dismissed by "KE don't matter" people because gel is not tissue, accurate statement; okay, gonna have to see it in tissue for it to count.

Well now I've got my own pics and I've mythbusted this cliche to my satisfaction.
I shot a deer with a Colt Delta Elite 10mm, bullet was a 155 XTP @ 1,400 fps (my chrono average) which is 675# KE at muzzle.
According to a ballistics calculator, that bullet had about 1,330 fps /608# KE remaining at 18 yards, distance at which deer was shot.
Deer ran 40 yards and fell over, result from handgun did not "suck" - quite the opposite.
There was tissue damage beyond the diameter of the bullet, temporary cavity effect that wasn't so temporary. About 1 1/4 inch exit hole in shoulder / leg tissue from a bullet that only expands to .65 then continued to made a hole bigger than a quarter through the heart, again damage bigger than the expanded diameter of a 10mm XTP.

Unlike the doctors that can't tell a difference, I have pics for peer review (reply #356 & 358)
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/official-10mmauto-deer-hunt-story-thread.1373461/page-18

"KE don't matter from handguns / handgun temporary cavity doesn't matter" is an incorrect generalization, it does not apply to Glock 20 or Delta Elite (10mm) with ammo producing / impacting with excess of 600# KE.
 
#21 ·
Come on M, you really expect me to read all that.
 
#23 ·
Depends....
Actually, the Lucky Gunner link has some pretty comprehensive tables.
 
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#25 ·
A man's gun? I would rather take a hard right from a man than take a hit with .380 in the same spot.
That is about the dumbest thing I've read lately. As I said before, the hit you take from a .380 will hurt a whole lot more than the hit you didn't take from a (insert larger caliber here), because you left it at home. I can keep it inside a 4" circle at 30', I carry 3 spare mags, 2 loaded with Hornady CD and 1 with Buffalo Bore 95gr +p hard cast bullets. I can not carry anything bigger while at work, so I make sure I'm proficient with what I carry and it is ALWAYS ON ME. When I have the ability I carry something bigger, but sometimes that is not an option.
 
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#29 ·
I was not slamming a .380 and I failed to make my point. The OP mentioned a 9mm was potentially not a man's gun. A strong man can hit hard enough to kill a person but they most likely wont kill them. One is more likely to die if shot in the head. My point was that even a gun less powerful than a 9mm is better then a man. Better then a knife also. The whole idea of a "man's gun" is goofy to me. If one really wants to go down that road - using LESS should impress. Men don't need to prove their manhood but if one does feel a need to prove his is a man I suggest he go hunting a Grizzly bear with a spear. I know where some are and I will give him a spear.
 
#32 ·
Not my current carry but I’ve also toted a .380 loaded with ball ammo.

If that’s all someone wants to carry then ok. My problem with .380 pistols is that they should be pretty small, otherwise why not upgrade to 9mm? Of course the issue then becomes a matter of controlling a true pocket gun in rapid fire. I found it difficult and not exactly confidence inspiring.
Can't say that I disagree with you. In the distant past, I used to have a Chief's Special that I kept loaded with Federal +P+ stuff. A couple of quick shots had my hands stinging, a whole cylinder full was very unpleasant and had me flinching both from the recoil and the pronounced muzzle blast. If I need more power, it is to a larger/more powerful caliber I go. Sometimes social constraints require me to carry less than I would prefer, so I gotta go with what I can get away with.
 
#38 ·
Not my current carry but I’ve also toted a .380 loaded with ball ammo.

If that’s all someone wants to carry then ok. My problem with .380 pistols is that they should be pretty small, otherwise why not upgrade to 9mm? Of course the issue then becomes a matter of controlling a true pocket gun in rapid fire. I found it difficult and not exactly confidence inspiring.
I agree completely, the reason I bought my M&P Bodyguard 380 was because of the size, I needed small. The first time I tried to shoot it, I thought it was horrible. The trigger pull is a long DAO, and it was so small it was hard to hold. I made the decision to carry it, put several hundred rounds through it, now thousand, and now I can keep it in a 4" group at 30'. It fired everything I put in it and it never fails. I am very confident that if I ever need it, it will serve me well. I spent my life training for and executing real world live fire missions, so I know what to expect in a firefight. A 380 is not the ultimate round, but it is better than no round, that is why I spent so much time training with it.
 
#50 ·
I usually carry a .45 1911 but sometimes when I am just making a quick trip to town in the day I will just slip my little .22 Beretta 21A in my pocket and go. I would never recommend just anyone rely on a .22 but I got it on a trade and don't feel the need for a bigger small caliber weapon. I had a .380 FEG and it was Ok but I just don't like having to flip a safety up to disengage so I got rid of it. I do like the little Colt .380s but there are a few others I like about as well. A full size steel CZ-75 also appeals to me. 40 years ago I sometimes carried a .38 Colt Cobra and I still have an old Smith & Wesson Model 48 22Mag revolver I often carry in the vehicle. No matter what I had at any given time I have never had the "Feeling" that I was not carrying enough gun. But I do have a "Better" feeling the better I am armed.
 
#171 ·
This is one opinion I feel is completely wrong. "Just going to town, so I slip a .22" You obviously feel there might be a lethal confrontation or you wouldn't be carrying a gun at all. Your potential adversary doesn't know your just going to town. He's going to kill you if you get in the way. If I'm going to carry a gun it's always the one I feel confident will stop the fight in my favor. If my EDC is good enough for the big city, it's good enough for the local stop and rob. Your going to very embarrassed if you walk in on two gun toting thugs with a .22 in your pocket and a .40 CZ sitting home in a drawer.
 
#53 ·
Basing what you are comfortable carrying on uneducated opinions.
Care to cite an example? I ask because, many "educated opinions" often clash with other "educated opinions."
I think I have examples:

I hypothetically carry a 32 for a decade and never have to use it to defend myself.
I say I felt comfortable, meaning or implying adequately protected, carrying a 32 acp
How I felt in the hypothetical example is not supported by incapacitation potential of 32 acp

Guy driving a Smart car may feel adequately protected against head on crash with a Ford F150
As long as a head on crash never occurs his sense of comfort is not put to the test.

Like a confident 32 carrier that's never used the minimal caliber to stop an attacker.
(Muh feelzs)
 
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#52 ·
I guess the truth of it all is, that you keep shooting, regardless of what caliber you have, until the target is neutralized. You could shoot the biggest baddest heaviest load, but if it doesn't hit anything vital, no great result. Hit a vital area with a .22 and you can have great a result.
 
#56 · (Edited)
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Thank you sir, you read my mind. How you "feel" about your carry gun is irrelevent.
I disagree. It could be relevant if one carries a poor weapon based on that feeling. A person with little real life experience could have a false sense of security carrying a weapon that is adequate for many situations but not for some. If you know where and when you are going, what you will be doing, who you are going to be around then I don't think it folly for some to carry a small caliber weapon. I like my 1911 and know I can probably handle any threat that I will run into in my area. When I go farther and longer from home I take a rifle also but think a CZ-75 would be a better travel gun then my 1911. Assailants might have a lot of ammo in their vehicle and having an accurate high capacity pistol could win the day. Because many "feel good" in their ability to stop a Grizzly with their pistol they don't carry a proper long gun. Fine and well for those that know how they will react, but many don't have experience preforming under extreme stress. They would be better off with a long gun. How one feels about his weapon is also important as far as confidence goes.http://www.gunnuts.net/2015/10/22/the-importance-of-confidence/
 
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