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Police Fatally Shoot Suspect After Dragging Cop By The Leg

14K views 283 replies 61 participants last post by  Sam Spade 
#1 ·
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#108 ·
All the cops I worked with in the 80's and 90's felt the same. Apparently many think differently now.
I think there is a mall somewhere missing it's ninja, but anyway.......

Look around, this isn't the 80's or 90's. LEO's that "like to fight" get sued and fired.

LEO's that use force, be it Taser, getting involved in a pursuit, physical force, etc get "tracked". Use force often enough, EVEN IF EVERY SINGLE INCIDENT IS DEEMED TO BE REASONABLE, APPROPRIATE, FORCE, and the number of incidents still will get someone put on "the list".

Don't ever use force, take your time getting to hot calls, drive the long way, etc there is no "list" for officers that never use force at most departments.

What's worse is often the ones using force too often, are using force because they have to take charge at incidents where the no force officers aren't using the force that needs to be used.

The public doesn't want officers using force, police chiefs and administrators don't want officers using force. The hiring process is often geared away from hiring people that might be aggressive.

The public still wants the police to deal with troublemakers, but doesn't want force used. De-escalation training is the most recent buzzword. Other options include CIT, verbal judo, professional communications etc etc.

What the public really seems to want is Jedi mind tricks. Where the police somehow get resistive suspects into custody without force being used.

So you end up with officers that are reluctant to use force. Those officers are less likely to train the skills needed to use force efficiently. So if/when they use force, they are likely to be basically untrained skill level in empty hand tactics.
 
#113 ·
I think there is a mall somewhere missing it's ninja
I see that term frequently on forums, but never really knew what it meant, so I had to google it. The definition I found refers to someone obsessed with tactical, paramilitary style firearms and modifications and Spec Op related stuff.

Considering I'm middle age man who carries a stock S&W snub, I'm a bit confused at how the term applies to me.

I don't even own an AR, but going by your user name....

Now if you are trying to take a shot at my martial art background, what exactly is the problem?
 
#110 ·
There still are some agencies that will allow the use of force, teach it, and only put you on "the list" for sustained allegations , not whining by perps.
We also allow chases within reason and teach every officer to use the PIT maneuver, we want fit officers and will discipline those that show cowardice.
Some people are not fit for this line of work better they learn that early on.
 
#115 ·
Yup.

There are what are claimed to be predictive behavior tracking programs that claim to be able to predict which officers are likely to use excessive force based on past uses of force. Most seem to simply tracking numbers of use of force incidents and base the prediction on a numerical basis.

We teach how to use force, how to report use of force etc. We allow chases, and the PIT, although very few are trained in it. I think it has been used 1 time in the last 15 years.

OTOH, the administration does things that make it clear that they don't really want force used. Taser use is almost on par with the justification needed to use an impact weapon. There is a Use of Force committee that dissects use of force incidents. The constant second guessing make officers reluctant to use force.

I'm sure they will say we would discipline slackers and cowards, but I can't think of when a coward has been disciplined.

I'm pretty sure that the standards of acceptable have changed in the last 30 years, and some of the people that are officers today would be unsatisfactory under the standards of 30 years ago.

I think you mentioned that officers use the Taser as a use of force crutch. I don't think I have read a truer statement in some time. I think officers use it as a crutch, and administrators expect that any officer armed with a Taser can use it for most of their use of force situations. Even if that officer is lacking in physical skills for empty hand tactics.
 
#111 · (Edited)
This was something that was being discussed before I retired, but for some reason it doesn't seem to have been mentioned in more recent discussions. Also bear in mind that the 5yr study conducted by their research team was from 15 years before this 2008 article.

https://www.poam.net/train-and-educate/train-educate/

I remember back then when it was sometimes being speculated and lamented that the "ideal" type of candidate and person hired - the "poster person" for hiring, who is also most well liked police officer in a community (officer friendly, etc) - might also end up being the least likely to recognize, and be able to survive, a sudden violent encounter.

From an interesting study of the "victim officer" in a chapter in this more recent study (2006), it's probably not nearly as simple as might be thought by some folks. The cops on the forum have probably already seen this many years ago, but some of it might be interesting for the non-cops, too.

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/policecommission/materials/band-readahead.pdf
 
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#120 ·
Oddly enough, the infrequent times I went into a couple of different donut shops on a break while working, the places were crowded with non-cops. Weird. It almost seemed like non-cops were the primary customers of donut shops.

Wait, come to think of it, when sometimes going to one or another of my daughter's and granddaughter's favorite coffee/donut shops in Seattle, and the greater surrounding areas (since donuts are a special treat for them during our visits), I've never seen a uniformed cop (or even someone I'd tag as an off-duty cop) in the places. They've always been swamped by non-cops.

Weird, huh?

;)
 
#114 ·
as far as who is on the street we used to get this


now we have this


We are not interested in those that can do the job well, we are interested in quotas of the right ratio.
In March I was leaving municipal court when I observed a neighboring jurisdiction out on what appeared to be a pedestrian stop. I then observed a female officer (who was lauded by the department as their first female black officer, whom the dept passed over approximately forty other candidates to get to) getting her ass handed to her.

Myself and another officer intervened and were able to take him into custody fairly quickly and without regard to our own safety (plain clothes, he carrying a revolver and myself a G43 with nothing else). Never so much as a thank you, just a look of disgust from her.

Her probation was terminated shortly thereafter when she was involved in a domestic dispute and when officers arrived she was wearing sweatpants with her duty belt on. Good riddance.

Give me a veteran or a collegiate athlete to work with any day. My biggest problems are the college educated guys who are 25 and still live at home with mommy.
 
#116 ·
There is at least one gun present at every job, yours.
This.

I was taught this and make sure to reiterate it every training session.

There is at least one gun at every call, and it belongs to whoever gets it first.
 
#117 ·
As I have said, you're not generally allowed to shoot unarmed people for coming at you or even trying to hit you. Not sure how people have recently started to think the law allows that.

There is an argument that the law does allow it, in Kentucky, based on an unforeseen interplay between the wordings of a couple of our statutes, but it has never been tried and even if it worked you'd have no defense to federal charges.
At what point was it known he was unarmed, before, during, or after the incident?

Can Great Bodily Harm be inflicted by a large man kicking/punching you?
 
#128 ·
It's more about knowing he's armed to justify the shooting, instead of assuming it is justified unless you know he is unarmed.
 
#132 ·
...I was working plain clothes security in a retail store located by some housing projects. Shoplifting was a daily occurrence and my job was often to chase them down and bring them back. I actually loved the job and did it more for fun and to test techniques rather than the pay.....
Ha, ha. That's awesome.
 
#134 ·
A few years ago, when I played in the streets, I would have choked him out or, a streamlight across the bridge of his nose.

Y’all really don’t know how many tools have been taken away from cops. Every single thing they do is scrutinized. In slow motion. Frame by frame, in a nice quiet office.

Likely everything I would have done, years ago, would cause more hand wringing, palpitations and fits than shooting him.

If you physically attack a cop, bad **** is going to happen to you. You used to get your ass whipped. Now? Cops are too beat down to do what needs to be done to prevent the situation from escalating. And, it turns into a deadly force situation.

This is the world that has been created. This is how cops have been forced to play the hand they are dealt.
 
#136 ·
I'm getting a sense that two black belts has returned from the bowels of a Shaolin Temple veiled to us mere mortals by the inscrutable mists of Oriental time. A deeply humbling experience indeed.

I certainly hope this inspires some people to leave their guns home, or at the station house -- maybe just bring a condiment, and maybe Tommy Swift's electric pistol -- so we all can enjoy future bodycam footage that is more Walker : Tejas Rangerito, and less... how you say in America? Gunsmoke?.

Fair warning though, some Gentle Giant decides to run at me, dragging a pajama-boi, and I may well have to resort to Ching-Ching Pow.

Not a cop, not a badass, but most importantly not psychic, therefore unable to predict how many strikes to the head it would take to kill/cripple me. Sorry, not sorry. Play nice, or risk getting ****ed up.
 
#145 ·
I'm getting a sense that two black belts has returned from the bowels of a Shaolin Temple veiled to us mere mortals by the inscrutable mists of Oriental time. A deeply humbling experience indeed.

I certainly hope this inspires some people to leave their guns home, or at the station house -- maybe just bring a condiment, and maybe Tommy Swift's electric pistol -- so we all can enjoy future bodycam footage that is more Walker : Tejas Rangerito, and less... how you say in America? Gunsmoke?.

Fair warning though, some Gentle Giant decides to run at me, dragging a pajama-boi, and I may well have to resort to Ching-Ching Pow.

Not a cop, not a badass, but most importantly not psychic, therefore unable to predict how many strikes to the head it would take to kill/cripple me. Sorry, not sorry. Play nice, or risk getting ****ed up.
That mentality might just land you behind bars the rest of your life. Having options are a good thing, being a coward is not.

Let's explore the "I'll just shoot 'em" mindset for a moment. I've heard that my whole life from insecure little men desperately seeking some source of comfort for their feelings of inadeqauency. I think perhaps they need a therapist more than a gun and of course, they are usually at arms length when uttering that statement and I point out that there is very little chance they would ever get the gun out should I decide I've had enough of their bravado.

Unless you are physically handicapped in some way, elderly or there is a disparity of force situation in a H2H scenario, the gun should probably stay put. I have no clue to your identify, but I'm operating under the assumption that you are an average adult male. I imagine most everyone would agree that a life behind bars or any significant sentence would really stink and it would be a shame to leave your family because you panicked and shot someone due to being scared.

The majority of people that are likely to launch an unarmed assault are not highly trained fighters, so assuming you are an average man, there isn't likely to be a subtanial enough disparity of force to warrant introducing deadly force. It's possible if you should find yourself mounted or perhaps grounded and under a barrage of strikes, but you going to jail or or least to trial is still very likely.

But, let's say you are just having a real bad day and a skilled MMA fighter decides he's going to remove your head from your body. While not necessarily highly probable, considering the current climate in MMA, it's much more likely than it once was. Amidst the frail skinny jean wearing millineal crowd is an MMA subculture that is fairly large and continually growing where steroid and drug use runs rampant. My involvement in MMA was primarily in the formative years when it was simply NHB. There were virtually no rules, but there was a lot more class and respect. I want no part of what I see going in a high percentage of the MMA gyms I visit.

So, one of these roided up fighters decides he's going to put a serious hurt on you and is completely out of his mind due to the cocktail of drugs he's on. Just shoot him? If your only training is square range, putting holes in paper type stuff, that might prove more difficult than you might think. First, you have to be able to get the gun out in a timely enough manner and second, you have to put enough effective shots on target to stop him before he gets ahold of you. And that's assuming there's separation to begin with and you have ample time to react. If it erupts at contact distance, it won't likely look anything like the OP's video. It's amazing how much punishment a big, strong determined attacker on drugs can take.

The point being is that these skills you seem to so frequently deride are a pretty vital component of self-defense preparedness in any scenario.

Look at how many shots were fired(including from long guns) at crazed ex-MMA fighter Amokrane Sabet and where he started vs where he ended up. Do you think you could have stopped him with just your carry handgun?


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFFsDD4luT4
 
#138 ·
Notice I said "protect" not shoot, I am in full agreement, It does complicate the matter when you have a gun in hand if you have not trained them how to strike with it.
hence bad tactics training or both.
I think I remember something in our policy that forbids using gun as impact weapon. That said there is also a section that basically says all bets are off if shtf...

Randy

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#140 ·
It's a weapon of opportunity in ours as is a Knife to be used during a sudden attack or when in a fight to control your weapon.
I don't believe in painting people into a corner, strikes to anywhere are allowed because fighting for your life allows you to improvise adapt and overcome.
 
#156 · (Edited)
Unarmed is an after the fact determination.
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Which is precisely why it is irrelevant in the context of an OIS. Am I missing something?

edit-in other words officers can articulate facts known at the time of the shooting as justification. Not information learned after the shooting.
 
#157 ·
If this could rejoin this vidio. IMO I saw a "disparity of force". I saw a large aggressive subject who (,again IMO) was attacking a much smaller, weaker, less able Officer. Who (it appears) used verbal, less lethal, retreat... While having every Officer able to handle a MMA fighter might be nice.

Police Officers in today's world need TONS of other skills as well. Training, certification in many areas. (Some I really don't understand). (On this I am talking from info from small dept)

Then you have media hunting for hint of anything. A large section of public looking for fault. (Likely section Officers have to deal with the most).

Question. What is unarmed suspect once he overpowers armed Officer? What happens next? Does he call for Ambulance for Officer? Walk away and sit down? Or might he kill Officer with Officers gun? Maybe shoot a few more?

The vidio clip with rubber bullets was rather useless.
 
#158 ·
IMO I saw a "disparity of force". I saw a large aggressive subject who (,again IMO) was attacking a much smaller, weaker, less able Officer. Who (it appears) used verbal, less lethal, retreat... While having every Officer able to handle a MMA fighter might be nice.

Police Officers in today's world need TONS of other skills as well. Training, certification in many areas. (Some I really don't understand). (On this I am talking from info from small dept)

Then you have media hunting for hint of anything. A large section of public looking for fault. (Likely section Officers have to deal with the most).

Question. What is unarmed suspect once he overpowers armed Officer? What happens next? Does he call for Ambulance for Officer? Walk away and sit down? Or might he kill Officer with Officers gun? Maybe shoot a few more?
Disparity of force would only possibly apply to officer #1 since he was on the ground with the suspect standing over him although I still don't see anything that occurred as warranting introducing deadly force and apparently neither did he. The primary problem as I see it is officer #1 is not who fired the fatal shots.

Officer #2 had many options available to him, but instead choose to go straight to the gun. He wasn't protecting officer #1 since the suspect had already released him and moved away when the shots were fired.

This suspect definitely was not a trained MMA fighter and greater size alone isn't a reliable indicator of capability in H2H or that there is a disparity of force issue. The aggressor in this video was larger than the officers, but severely lacking in his ability to launch a serious unarmed attack. And no I don't consider slapping and couple of weak kicks a serious attack. Either officer should have had the training and skill to deal with this incident without resorting to a firearm. Definitely so considering there were two of them. I don't know if the training, the officers themselves or department policy is different, but something has changed over the last couple of decades and not for the good.

And the idea that since every confrontation between a police officer and an unarmed attacker involves a gun, the officer is justified in shooting suspect out of the fear of possibly being disarmed and their own gun used against them is a very dangerous one. It's a slippery slope where there are no clear cut guidelines and that if allowed to continue will eventually likely result in a call for police to be disarmed.
 
#172 ·
An outstanding example is this: in 2017, my agency has sponsored me into 48 hours of CIT and de-escalation training. And 6 of DT.

That is the reality we face today.
 
#175 ·
An outstanding example is this: in 2017, my agency has sponsored me into 48 hours of CIT and de-escalation training. And 6 of DT.

That is the reality we face today.
We just got told that every single officer will be required to take the same crap in 2018.
 
#173 · (Edited)
The second Officer has a legal right to protect the Officer on the ground being kicked repeatedly.

Not knowing when that assault may stop or, when the fatal or seriously injuring blow may occur, he is not out of bounds to display deadly force and, advise the suspect that he may employ deadly force if needed.
In the real world it may sound like “Mother****er, let go of the Officer and get on the ****ing ground or I’ll shoot your ass!”

Or, something to that effect.

Anyway, if the suspect wants to play along, he lets go of the Officer and, gets on the ground...

But, he didn’t. He now charged an Officer with a drawn gun.

The gun being between him and the Officer.

Suspect has already shown to be extremely violent. Not affected by the taser and, still charging a drawn gun pointed at him.

He will reach the gun and, have an opportunity to disarm the officer before he even gets close enough to assault the officer physically.

Either in his rage he didn’t care there was a gun pointed at him or, decided to gamble on the officer quickly reholstering his gun, securing it and then duking it out. Or, was going to attempt to gain control of the weapon.

He guessed poorly. I have not one iota of sympathy.
 
#177 ·
I have enjoyed this thread so far. One thing that keeps getting brought up. The use of hands on v. intermediate to deadly force.
The majority of younger/new people on the force have not been in a honest to god scrap, let alone for their life. That includes myself, I am not afraid to admit that to you all. I've not been in any school yard or drunken brawls. I was asked very bluntly during my poly questioning "have you ever been in a fist fight?" I replied "no." The reaction was not as expected. In fact it stuck with me so much I asked my FTO about it once I was hired. He told me matter of factly they prefer if you've got some fighting experience so you'll know how to handle yourself. And I was thinking, seeing as how they were digging into all of past demons on that friggin interview they'd view it as a good thing
 
#180 ·
I have enjoyed this thread so far. One thing that keeps getting brought up. The use of hands on v. intermediate to deadly force.
The majority of younger/new people on the force have not been in a honest to god scrap, let alone for their life.
There's a lot of truth to this, and it's an unfortunate truth.
 
#188 ·
I worked security running down shoplifters at a store that was situated by a large housing projects complex. Quite a few got combative. This was years ago though. The serious drug users were usually pretty frail. I've been involved in a few steet altercations mainly due to going to places I really shouldn't have been at or walking the streets at bad times. Most of them were a long time ago and completely avoidable. I imagine a lot of these folks were under the influence of something. You would think being big and muscular would be a deterrent, but it often makes you a target, especially when different skin colors are involved. Other than sport fighting, I participated in a few challenge fights(both LEO's and civilians) at my studio over the years mainly to prove a point and build credibility- the "rules" were they could do whatever they wanted, but I was limited to grappling only primarily to demonstrate I could subdue and control the individual without actually hurting them. No PCP involved to my knowledge, but plenty of steroid and amphetamine use.
You shouldn’t equate the usual drug using shoplifters/weightlifters with someone on PCP/synth PCP users.
 
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#189 ·
I don't know what they were on. All I can say is I saw some pretty erratic behavior.

Does any of this relate to suspect the OP? Was he on PCP? All I can find out about him was that he was a Haitian business owner and the family stated that he had suffered a stroke and was having residual mental problems from it.
 
#190 ·
How many people on PCP or synthetic PCP type drugs have you fought H2H?
2 both PCP and not at the same time.
but within weeks of each other
 
#191 ·
There's a lot of truth to this, and it's an unfortunate truth.
no doubt about that. the merits of that experience are hard to deny. One of our guys is a seasoned MMA fighter (to a national scale) and I eagerly look forward to the call he gets to use that crap on someone. I have seen videos of his fights, it's something else.

When I was growing up, engaging in impromptu backyard wrestling and boxing matches as well as general roughhousing was the norm for young boys. Is that not true today?
rough housing sure but no, I cannot say I have ever been in a boxing match.

I would not say the above is a bad thing per se, I personally believe the issue stems from fear of deviating from what is currently taught in academies and agencies, which nowadays is mostly retreat and "verbal judo." and the consequences that may follow. you all and I have surely seen too many videos where too little force has been used when it is above and beyond justified. I really think it stems from fear of prosecution.

SC actually just changed up our DT program entirely at the academy since I've graduated. Breaking off and separating is now the name of the game over close, hand to hand, physical tactics.

I do not want to quarterback on this issue at all nor sound like I know more than anyone. But in my genuinely humble opinion, please look at the Estill PD shooting from SC recently. that was my area of this state. Again, in my humble opinion, that was a firearm situation all day - not tazer. I've not spoken with that officer about it, however I do believe there is an over reliance on non lethals and hands on in general. Once more I am really not trying to quarterback I just believe it to be a good example. that video is heart stopping to watch, especially being so close to home. the dispatcher was also kin to him. a lot of people here have said that dispatcher was not great, but imagine being on the receiving end of that call when blood related.
 
#192 ·
There's a lot of truth to this, and it's an unfortunate truth.
That’s foreign to me. Where I grew up, we were fighting on a weekly basis. Every kid I know growing up had been in multiple fights and I had broken my nice twice by the time I was twelve years old.


Nothing crazy. We didn’t stomp each others heads in either. If you had a problem (real or perceived) with a neighborhood kid, you just knuckled up. It’s get broken up and you shook hands and kept playing whatever sport we were playing.

We were family though it was a very strange paradigm. I still communicate frequently with nearly everyone of those guys. All are very successful, two realtors, three cops (one of which made captain by the time he was 30 in a large agency), a career military guy, an attorney, an anesthesiologist, and two are engineers for power companies. Not to mention all of their little brothers who tagged along and got a whooping just as bad sometimes. All of them, successful as well.

Maybe it’s the old steel mill mentality.
 
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#193 ·
There's alot to be said in getting punched in the face or punching someone else in the face, and realizing it's not the end of the world. I don't think you're allowed to say it anymore, though.
There's alot to be learned in losing a fight.
It's the same thing you get after being shot down or rejected by a woman you ask out.
First time it hurts. Second time'll sting. Third time will bug you and you'll really question yourself. But, when/if you push past that everything gets so much easier.
I'm afraid alot of men don't develop that anymore.
The edges have been softened.

A comedic genius did a bit once about cops (primarily small women and men).
His main point was
They should only hire cops that could physically arrest you even if they weren't a cop.
I'm listening to you out of respect for the law, pretending that you're scary and could actually control me. What happens to you when you run into that guy that doesn't have that respect? That just doesn't give a *#$%?

Meh, if you got 14min to kill.
 
#194 ·
I don't know since I never administered a drug test, but quite a few were obviously on something.
Including alcohol?

If you don't suspect any were in pcp, they weren't. /]

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