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Had a stressful drive thru

8K views 116 replies 70 participants last post by  Bruce M 
#1 · (Edited)
did Not get any helpful responses. Just insulted. When someone reaches into your car and demends your money, worry not.
 
#45 ·
...I responded with my glock 23 aimed at him...
We'd all benefit from more formal training in use-of-force. This particular situation might have turned out alright, or it might not have; it's still possible that the OP will be charged with a crime.

OP: Rather than just asking us, you should ask Massad Ayoob, by posting your question in the GATE Self-Defense Forum. I have an educated guess as to what he might tell you, but...I might be completely wrong. Either way, you - and we - really should hear it from him.

GATE Self-Defense Forum
https://www.glocktalk.com/forum/gate-self-defense-forum.256/
 
#46 ·
The OP stated he observed the man angrily demanding money from the car in front of him. I most likely would not of pointed the gun at him but would of let him see it presence while insisting he move away. This unknown is within 2-3 feet of the OP and there is no way of knowing what is going to happen next, this is why police officers insist on maintaining a safe distance between themselves and unknown persons. Since there are cameras they should have plenty of footage of this and prior activity, plus a record of numerous call for police service for this problem. I guess pushing the panic button on the key fob might be another solution.
While it is good to maintain a safe distance of escape that doesn't always work well when there are cars in lanes on both sides and they're not moving. If in inner city high traffic you leave a space in front of you, it's inviting some dork the opportunity to pop in your safe zone, pretty soon they have moved on a your still sitting in same place.
 
#48 ·
Off topic, but I was at a Church security meeting for the congregation and I asked the question of, "When can you display your weapon or fire it". I was quickly almost shouted down with "better safe then sorry, and "better to be judged by 12 then carried by six". I don't think enough CC citizens have a clear understanding of the consequences. I know I don't.
 
#56 ·
...Just thought I would present the issue and see what other folks would have done , better or different.
Sorry I'm think tampons are needed here...
No need to even bring a firearm in to the situation he did NOTHING to you except scare you which by the sounds of it was not hard to do.
Pepper spray would have been ready but pointing a gun?? No F'n way damn vaginas need to think of other means to stop a perceived threat but they get a gun and all thinking stops cause they got a gun now..
 
#58 ·
The bad news is that it sounds like pointing the gun at the homeless guy in this case seems to meet all the elements of an assault with a firearm. The good news is that many, perhaps even most officers working an area with a fair number of aggressive homeless panhandlers have most likely dealt with them a lot. As a result they probably know that a homeless guy probably has a criminal record, substance abuse issues and/or mental illness which means that they probably will not show up when needed for various parts of the prosecution process and probably would be a pretty poor witness without much credibility in a trial. As a result a fair number of officers would probably be reluctant to pursue and arrest of the gun pointer. But I would not want to wager on that to keep my freedom.

Here if I drew my gun every time I had an aggressive panhandler in the immediate area, I probably would have worn out two holsters and at least one set of grips by now.
 
#61 ·
You were in a locked car with the window up? I don't see that as a life threatening situation and I doubt a jury would either. I think pulling your gun was a little reckless on your part. Maybe look into some more training. I'm sure it was a bit of a scary situation... But as a carrier of a concealed weapon your judgement on when to pull your weapon needs to be spot on.
 
#62 ·
I would tend to agree that unless there were details left out, you likely overreacted. Unless you were threatened with what could reasonably considered bodily harm, probably a bad idea to present the gun.

Having lived a big chunk of my adult life in San Francisco, I might be a little more desensitized to the threat presented than yourself. When I lived there, I volunteered in a city sponsored outreach program for the homeless. We always worked in at least 2's and went out and made contact with as many homeless as we could do in a shift. The goal was to get them to voluntarily come in for help and shelter. The good news is 99.9% of the homeless/panhandler types, even the noisy offensive types, are totally harmless, just really sad souls and not a lot more. The bad news is a very small percentage are extremely dangerous people, who if they have a weapon might kill you just for the thrill. That is the conundrum. You have to be alert and ready anytime you are dealing with a street person you don't know. But pulling your gun before they show something more than loud talk, maybe a bad idea.
 
#63 ·
The OP didnt come back to take his medicine, but in most jurisdictions, the OP committed a crime, not the nasty PH. Raw fear is seldom a reason to produce a weapon. Just sayin.
 
#64 · (Edited)
.
You really want to mix it up with some bum likely to have at least one communicable disease. I don't want to touch his shirt much less get his blood and saliva on me.
For the story alone (Potential GT Post material), I'd risk it.:supergrin:

Besides I've had all my shots. Plus I have my gloves and blood borne pathogen clean up kit in my car just for special occasions:nutcheck:

Or I'd buy him a big mac and fries depending what kind of mood I'm in.
 
#72 ·
Interesting video. But just does not seem to have any relation to the actual question in this event. First of all there was no indication of the homeless guy being armed, so it was not an armed robbery. It also seems that his demand may have not had any credible threat of force, so it probably does not rise to the level of a strong arm robbery. Introducing a gun in a forcible felony for protection is very different from introducing a gun in a disorderly conduct situation.

As far as whether shooting him after he was down, with due respect to the LEOs here, that question would probably be best asked of LEOs or prosecutors in Brazil.

Original post wasn't very infomative. I guess only you know if you feared for life or severe bodily injury. ....
I am thinking the problem may not be whether the OP feared for life or severe bodily injury. I think the question is whether or not a fear for life or severe bodily injury would be a reasonable fear for a reasonable person in the circumstances.
 
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#66 ·
I would tend to agree that unless there were details left out, you likely overreacted. Unless you were threatened with what could reasonably considered bodily harm, probably a bad idea to present the gun.

Having lived a big chunk of my adult life in San Francisco, I might be a little more desensitized to the threat presented than yourself. When I lived there, I volunteered in a city sponsored outreach program for the homeless. We always worked in at least 2's and went out and made contact with as many homeless as we could do in a shift. The goal was to get them to voluntarily come in for help and shelter. The good news is 99.9% of the homeless/panhandler types, even the noisy offensive types, are totally harmless, just really sad souls and not a lot more. The bad news is a very small percentage are extremely dangerous people, who if they have a weapon might kill you just for the thrill. That is the conundrum. You have to be alert and ready anytime you are dealing with a street person you don't know. But pulling your gun before they show something more than loud talk, maybe a bad idea.
Wife's office is in the middle of bum central here. They are confrontational and demanding. They pee all over the place and poop on the porch. They break into the electrical outlet to charge their phones. They leave trash everywhere. Local LE knows wife by first name and checks in on her frequently. They advised us to avoid them when possible. They said most don' want help. They want drug, alcohol and cigarette money. The ones who do want help get help and aren't out confronting people for money. No drugs or alcohol at the shelters.
 
#67 ·
100% correct. While there are homeless who are not in that life style by choice, most are. The ones that want out can get out, at least in SF where hundreds of millions are spent each year trying to provide everything that might be needed to make the transition. In many cases, probably half if my anecdotal impressions are accurate, they are mentally ill (beyond just alcohol and drug abuse issues), some stark raving bat ****.

Of course, with all that public money available, you have the minions who while always pretending to be there serving the homeless, really, their livelihood depends on the presence of the homeless, so actually fixing the problem would run counter to their best interests, and so it goes.
 
#70 ·
Good examples both.

1st one- still going to Grand Jury for possible charges even though multiple witnesses confirmed the robbery attempt.

2nd one- will get by maybe by being LE. Courts don't like perps that are shot in the back especially multiple times. I would bet if that guy was just a civilian, he would be charged after shooting him 4 or 5 times in the back after he was down on the ground.

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2nd Video - I'd agree and disagree. If a man has just pulled a loaded gun and pointed it in your face, shooting until the threat stops completely is reasonable, as you don't know when or if he will stop and he has a hot weapon.
 
#75 ·
In this situation I like the EDC flashlight in the eyes. I like the flashing mode. It's very disorienting and annoying, and everyone else can see the flashing and calls attention to the situation. Next is a loud authoritative command: "Sir move away from the vehicle." If neither of those work I would drive away if I could. If that doesn't work then you might be able convince a Jury you had cause to draw... shooting is another thing. Nobody can predict what happens when the shooting starts.
 
#77 ·
The bad news is there isn't any continuity from state to state. Been threw several ccw related courses here including use of force. The general opinion is you can order the perpatrator away, inform them you're armed, uncover the holstered weapon, even put your hand on your weapon based on there might be a threat and your legal. If you draw the weapon you must have an iminate threat, even disparity of size or age and the perpatraitor is agressive is enough. Otherwise you could be charged depending on the DA's perception of the incident. Here in AZ they claim 93% prosicution rate. Please be safe, enjoy your holiday.
 
#85 ·
The bad news is there isn't any continuity from state to state. Been threw several ccw related courses here including use of force. .....
In any of your classes from what was presented did it sound as if pointing a gun at a panhandler who was a bit aggressive was justified or potentially criminal?
 
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#78 ·
I always carry my pistol with me but in this situation I feel that it wouldn't be needed. The again I am 35 years old and in the prime of my life. I have trained golden gloves and pretty sure I could knuckle up with a panhandler if I needed to. People like this don't intimidate me. They would probably rob me given the chance but honestly, i wouldn't shoot anyone over a couple hundred bucks I have in my pocket at a given time. Even a homeless persons life is worth more than that to me. I only point my pistol if I'm going to shoot. I only do that if me or my families life is in a life or death situation. God willing, hopefully I never have to.

I see some with a CPL or CCW whatever it is in your state, that look forward to opportunities to use their weapons. I am with everyone else that stated its best to avoid at all costs.
 
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